What was they thinking when they did variant dungeons and criterion

[Cach]

because their opinion differs from your own

When we can move past "majority rule" and "it's good thing bad because yes" maybe you'll have a sliver of a point.

"I like this, but I don't like that".

The fact that you're expected to present a curriculum of what you like to discuss something, anything, is nothing short of bizarre.
"Hey buddy, here, I still enjoy this and this, and here is my daily schedule... so don't feel bad, ok?".

One pertinent question I have is who exactly is this Criterion content even meant to be for. I have no real issue with variant, I'd call that a success even if the rewards are a bit more sparse than id like. Savage raiders don't wanna do it cause rewards don't justify the effort, casual players wont be able to at all. Extreme players can't even get past the first boss.

Variant has a solid basis and I would be happy if it were to replace what we now know today as "expert dungeons" going forward. Including a revamp of rewards and eventually their own roulette. This will "future proof" them much better. Of course given the current implementation, I doubt it will happen.
For what I observed, Criterion Savage is just Criterion with a forced no death speedrun. I would remove their existence completely tbh (no deaths, and speedrun can easily be reward granting achievements), and focus on retooling/rebalancing normal Criterion, with rewards appropriate to the difficulty they end up choosing.

[Alleo]

So you look for people that want to play the same way you do. I normally takes up to 30 min to find people if no one I know is free. I just don't see how play solo in the solution in an MMO.

And what does it matter to you if people choose to play it solo? Are you afraid that suddenly everyone will do it that way? (Npcs are still slower and way more punishing than a good player run) And if somehow many play it that way, than these probably would not have done much group content anyway.

The solo part is a great way for more people to enjoy this game. I never started WoW years back because I did not like the thought of doing it with people I dont know. I hated having to do dungeons when I started FF14. And I was so glad when we got the NPCs. If we did not have these NPCs to run dungeons with us I simply would have done the story dungeons once and played more gathering and crafting. (Or found some people in other FCs that I know to run it with me)

So in the end you have two easy solutions: Go find a group yourself with the group finder and do it with them. Or find a active FC that will run these things with you. Having a static is often needed if you want to do the harder content.

And eventhough I prefer the solo playstyle I still found friends in this game. One I would even count as a best friend. He too is more of a solo player. Yet we both know enough other people which in turn know people or have big FC behind them that we could run stuff in groups. We do it for palace right now. We run it either as a duo or a trio. So if there is a will there is way.

[R041]

Many people here deeply love the criterion dungeons BECAUSE they have no rewards. They want to clear once for the challenge and that’s it. They don’t want to have their time playing other games or AFKing taken up by a mandatory grind. Let’s face it, we’re in a big season for new games coming out. We don’t have time for replaying old content like criterion. FFXIV isn’t meant to be a “main game” like WoW is, it’s a side game. We log in, do dailies or weeklies, then log out or go AFK. We like to get our business over with. Let me play other games Square, I don’t like FFXIV that much and neither do you.

Do people forget we actively pay a sub with these weird talking points? Or that there are massive time gated systems that mean we need to stay subbed, or to keep our housing?
People get excited for new systems coming out to help pad the in-between, but when it's a big let down we're often told "You're not actually supposed to play the game, Yoshi even said so."

The most rewarding thing for me to do right now is to sit at a Summoning Bell to AFK do Ventures and craft, because over the years I just see us culling things down even further until there's nothing left to do other than a 2 day gimmick released every 6 months, and MSQ once every few years.

FFXIV doesn't need to be a main game, I just want it to at least be a game.

[NekoMataMata]

I haven't really had time to run them yet and I'm worried that by the time I do get time I won't have anyone to run them with at this rate...

[aveyond-dreams]

I haven't really had time to run them yet and I'm worried that by the time I do get time I won't have anyone to run them with at this rate...

I have excellent news for you. The rewards from these dungeons like the Noir set can be bought on the marketboard. If you have a spare 600k gil, you'll have the coat in no time at all.

[Midareyukki]

Do people forget we actively pay a sub with these weird talking points? Or that there are massive time gated systems that mean we need to stay subbed, or to keep our housing?
People get excited for new systems coming out to help pad the in-between, but when it's a big let down we're often told "You're not actually supposed to play the game, Yoshi even said so."

The most rewarding thing for me to do right now is to sit at a Summoning Bell to AFK do Ventures and craft, because over the years I just see us culling things down even further until there's nothing left to do other than a 2 day gimmick released every 6 months, and MSQ once every few years.

FFXIV doesn't need to be a main game, I just want it to at least be a game.

I think people misquote what he said. He said you weren't supposed to binge the game and poop-sock it, just log in when you want to, log out when you don't, without FOMO or feeling like you had to log on every day.

Otherwise, you have to log on at least once a week for weekly clears and resets, not to mention remain subbed to not lose your house like you said. And that's a bare minimum. So the game IS meant to be played, and has content if you decide to remain logged on and subbed.

I disagree with Macchiato saying that FFXIV is a side game. Any game is a side game. If the distinction mattered that much, then we'd be paying monthly for something actually inferior.

imo the real issue doesn't lie in there being stuff to do daily\weekly\monthly. The choice to log out and go AFK is there in any game, be it side/main, be it FF14, WoW, GW2 or whatever. You don't have to remain in-game like a match of League that you absolutely cannot pause. The real issue is in the quantity and quality of content, and whether they translate into proper longevity and if they're fun or not.

It's why as much as I agree with Yoshida and think people rushed Island Sanctuary and similar content that wasn't meant to be rushed, I also have to point out that the devs didn't have the foresight to prepare for the way the community handled it. They didn't prepare for it to have longevity, they went through it relying on good player behaviour. Meaning that while I see the people who rushed it as not having read the room, I realize I shouldn't use what the devs said as an answer to those people because the devs' design is flawed.

Christ that reminds me of Meteion. "Hermes wouldn't have failed had he had better forethought and prepared Meteion for her purpose rather than allowing logic errors to form"...

Longevity needs to be assured as much as fun has to be. Not for every content, not everything needs to last, and fun is subjective. But if we're going to be waiting this long and remaining subscribed all throughout, then content needs to be relevant and last a little longer. And one thing that helps older content remain relevant despite its age is keeping it fun and provide rewards.

[TarynH]

The question is though: Why does every single piece of content have to be long lived?

One thing you really want in an MMO is varying content that is long-lived. Not a lot of the content in FFXIV is long-lived, and arbitrary time gates do not make something long-lived. It just makes it to where you have to wait a week to play the game for an hour or two.

Long-lived doesn't necessarily mean it has to be hard either. Not all content needs to have a static group and a month of practice. It just needs to have a reason to keep doing it beyond the first week of a patch. A reason that goes beyond it being "fun." Fun is only one aspect of it, and a grind does help at times. There's a fine line between a grueling grind and a fun grind though.

Based off of recent content:

8-man Raid Normal. Takes about 1-2 hour(s) per week. Only long-lived because you have to wait a week to get gear again. Fun, but not worth doing beyond getting the gear each week. By the time they allow you to lot more, the 24-man will be out and the gear is replaced.

8-man Raid Savage. Pretty much the same as above. I don't touch them during the cycle, but me doing them won't make them long-lived content.

Island Sanctuary is effectively done after 1-2 week(s) after the patch. Yes, they will add more to it, but is it long-lived? Not really, no. You can check on it every day, but it's pretty forgettable.

Variant Dungeons are probably the best thing I've seen added in awhile. I loved that I could duo it with a friend. Just finished this one though, a week after patch. Gear isn't really desirable enough to grind out. (Can't even wear the hat.) They said they'd add more later, but again, maybe 2-3 more weeks worth of content in an entire year.

Criterion Dungeons I don't really care about. Not gonna complain about them. I'm just not into savage type content. So for me, personally, it's untouched content that might as well not exist. However, it is content that will not live long for the majority of players.

The reason this becomes more and more of a problem, is because the time between patches keeps increasing. Four months now between major patches, and we get week long content sprinkled in here and there. Gear is replaced every two to four months. Hardly anything lasts beyond a week in a game where you could potentially log in every day. And their stance on it is "go play other games."

They either need to add new systems, or more reasons to do the newer content. As well as adding more reasons to possibly grind out old dead content, other than tomes or a roulette.

[Avoidy]

In a way, the new dungeon setup reminded me a lot of island sanctuary, in that I enjoyed it for a very short time, but now that I'm done with it I can't see myself ever returning. This is sort of problematic in the long term, because when enough people reach that "I don't want to go back anymore" stage, it makes progression difficult for people who arrived late to the content. Luckily Variant (i.e. the ez mode) skirts this issue by having viable solo options, but if you wanted to do the EX/Savage modes of it, you're sorta screwed. Good luck getting people to do that when the rewards might as well not exist, and anyone who did it for the challenge already did it and got that out of their system.

The issue though, is even with better rewards, this game basically implements rewards and then never changes them even when the environment shifts and those items aren't desired anymore. So if your goal is to create content with really strong staying power and you're an XIV developer, you have a difficult task ahead of you because you need to design content that's not just rewarding now, but will continue to be rewarding several years from now. "Glams" as rewards tried to solve this problem, but with Variant dungeons in particular, those rewards can be sold on the market and they're obviously getting cheaper every hour. It's easier for most people to just... buy the glam/minion/mount/etc. than it is to grind the content, so that's what a lot of people will do. I feel like the best solution they could offer, would be to include some item that people always desire no matter what, like crafting mats or something, and then when the next patch comes out, change the crafting mat with the needs of the player base. But then this creates the question of, like, "well okay but do we do this for all the other forgotten content that exists? Where do we stop?" and it's rather daunting.

The devs were probably thinking it's much easier to just make good one-time rewards and then call it a day like they've always done. They did it with island sanctuary, which is dead now. They did it with bozja, which is dead now. They did it with Eureka, which is alive with bots now, and so on. XIV is full of content, but there lacks a reason for doing most of it. And the solution is unclear. It is definitely a problem though. One that -- if solved -- could potentially revitalize several parts of the game all at once.

[DPZ2]

They did it with island sanctuary, which is dead now.

I find this outlook a bit odd. Island Sanctuary is only "dead" to those who've completed it at level 90. It doesn't require other people to play it, provides a few interesting glamour items and mounts/minions, and is quite likely to be very much alive for all of those up-and-coming players who haven't reached level 20, let alone level 90. Same thing for the Variant dungeons. If it's soloable, and there are rewards people want from it, it will never be "dead".

It's just content that you can't do over-and-over-and-over again. And that's ok.

[Avoidy]

I find this outlook a bit odd. Island Sanctuary is only "dead" to those who've completed it at level 90. It doesn't require other people to play it, provides a few interesting glamour items and mounts/minions, and is quite likely to be very much alive for all of those up-and-coming players who haven't reached level 20, let alone level 90. Same thing for the Variant dungeons. If it's soloable, and there are rewards people want from it, it will never be "dead".

When I say "dead," I mean that the vast majority of players aren't bothering to run this stuff because they completed it when it came out and there isn't a reason for them to return. Like, if I go into Bozja right now, I'm sure there'll be a few dudes in that big empty map running a mini FATE train, but I still wouldn't consider bozja healthy and living content since most people abandoned it, the rewards haven't been updated, and lord help you if you want to do a delubrum to get your relic; you've gotta join a discord for it because finding people in game for that is a pain. You mentioned my island sanctuary example. Will island sanctuary always have people running it as newbies trickle their way into endgame? Of course. Is island sanctuary a bustling hub of content that offers replayability to the vast vast majority of players who have already completed it? Unfortunately, no. You get your stuff, and you're done. There's no reason to go back. And I guess that's fine, but damn... if I were a dev I'd want people to have a reason to go back to the thing I spent a year+ building.

It's just content that you can't do over-and-over-and-over again. And that's ok.

I think it's okay when the content is framed like Island Sanctuary or Variant dungeons, yeah. Even if most people aren't even focusing on it in their periphery, at least someone who wants to make it their focus can just complete it alone. But for a lot of the content in this game that can't be soloed, that sudden loss of interest from most of the community is quite detrimental.