YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Have you done Anamnesis Anyder? Because if you run your group from the 2nd last boss to just before the final boss, there are no walls. You can pull from start to finish[...]

Not quite. Frizze meticulously breaks down the reasons. If any, Mt.Gulg's first pull probably fits better for being a potential 5-pack pull with not-so-high ilv syncing on top of that. Or some ARR dungeons.

You vastly overestimate how hard this pull is[...]

Ever since I reached lv cap back in ShB mid 5.2, I don't think I've ever seen people -not- wall pulling that part.

I'm more surprised that I'm only starting to see tanks stopping at 2nd pack around late 6.05... and I could count on one hand for the amount of time that actually happened up till now.

[Venjenz]

This entire discussion is what causes DF anxiety, particularly for tanks and healers. Having pretty much always tanked and sometimes healed in this game, and talking to folks in my FC about tanking/healing, the "you never know how you're going to get treated" aspect of DF is legit scary, particularly as one LEARNS the content, which to me is any content you haven't put on farm/grind.

I have never done YPYT, and I never will. Easier to sigh, treat the newly arrived bad guys as adds, do my AE thing and just finish the dungeon. I get why some tanks might get all offended, but I figure it is DPS who are too lazy to make a simple, polite "/p you can pull faster, because we got this, no problem" macro. I know I have the "/p still learning this dungeon/trial, sorry in advance for going slow or goofing up" macro, and I don't recall it taking long to make that macro. I know, I know...why should a DPS have to make that simple macro and add the one extra click to their DF day when it is so much easier to give that tank some "you suck at your job" anxiety...but hey, they give us that whole macro ability, so what the heck?

Also, others have said it, being a certain level means nothing for how experienced you are with group content. You can ding level 90 and finish MSQ by doing less than half the dungeons/trials and doing them only one time. This flies in the face of a very real, very common expectation in this game - that you know the content as well as the most experienced player and have practiced it as much as them. Because of that very thing and countless other "YPYT", "healers must max DPS" and "your DPS rotation must be XYZ else you s*ck" discussions since I joined the game originally, I am purposely taking this new sprout through a serious OCD grind/practice run, where I am still doing ARR content at level 60, even though I have MSQ to HW. DF anxiety is real, and until I feel like I have one xpac figured out, no need to move forward since all I am doing is adding things to DF that I am still learning.

The expectation is real. For any sprouts out there reading this thread, my suggestions are 1) do the Relic Reborn series for whatever your main class is...you have to do tons of dungeon/trial practice, and 2) any time you feel like you goofed up or just didn't feel like you "got it" in that last dungeon/trial, then select it specifically from DF and queue for it like 3-5x in a row, or until you feel like you get it. At some point, you will pop that DF with everyone OTHER than you being "played since 2014, and this game bores me" vets, and they have an expectation. A lot of practice goes a long way with those folks. That, and a "my bad, still n00b" macro. YMMV

[GoatOfWar]

While i agree that the mindset is stupid, it is a display of poor manners. I get slightly annoyed at times when people pull for me. Though this is rare because i just w2w most of the time.
It communicates that you think the tank's pace is too slow, and they might not feel comfortable pulling that extra pack. Or, in my case, if i had to overmitigate on the first pull for any reason (Usually mobs not dying before my mits expire) i'm going to take it a bit slower on the next one. There could be any variety of reasons why a tank is pulling slower.

All that being said, yes. You tank you pull is a stupid mindset and defeats the purpose of a tank. I know it can be tempting at times, but don't go on that power trip. Just play dps if you don't want to tank.

[Black_Gallows]

I don't understand the issue here. It's pretty simple. FF, like other MMO's uses the holy trinity system, and the jobs are named by class tank, healer dps are people confused?

Tank- The Tank role is one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The tank is responsible for drawing the attention of the enemy and absorbing as much damage as possible. This allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing damage or healing without having to worry about being attacked.

Healer- The Healer role also serves one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The healer is responsible for keeping everyone alive by using their healing spells and abilities. As the fights continue, it is often normal for everyone in the team to take damage at different levels. Healers replenish the health bars and keep everyone active to continue working towards a successful end to the battle. This work to remove damage allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing their own damage or tanking on the enemies without having to worry about the attacks knocking them out of the fight permanently.

DPS- The DPS role (stands for Damage-Per-Second) is all about dealing as much damage to the enemy as possible. In most games, there are multiple ways to DPS effectively. Players who select the DPS role at the beginning of the storyline will often specialize in that area throughout our journey. As the story progresses their abilities become more impressive. This allows for more dramatic effects to be linked together during the growth of the character. Essentially, a DPS player will deal larger numbers of damage to their enemies the more skill they develop playing their character. Melee DPS stands close to the enemy and uses physical attacks to deal damage while ranged DPS players stand further away and use spells to achieve victory over their enemies.

Am i reading any of this wrong? If a dps goes and pulls, the tank has to remove the add from them, that's less time the dps is on what the tank is already holding. Your job as the dps is not to pull and tank, you kill what the tank is holding for you.
Same with a healer puling or running in onto the boss and pulling it. You HEAL the tank, This game is designed that if done right, a dps should not be taking damage anyway, and yes, we can get into this whole puke about how a healer is a green dps, but if there is nothing to heal, in any game, a healer helps dps things down anyway.

If a dps/healer is running and pulling, you ARE slowing your dungeon run down. you're job is to kill stuff, or heal, not pull or tank stuff, unless the tank misses an add. you then grab it, and take it TO the tank.

How hard is this? No place in the game does it say a dps can pull, no where in the ToS does it say anyone can pull.

ToS DOES say, that if you are interfering with the game of another that is grounds for report.

Stop making a job be something it's not. do what you are supposed to within the rules of your job

[ForteNightshade]

Healer- The Healer role also serves one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The healer is responsible for keeping everyone alive by using their healing spells and abilities. As the fights continue, it is often normal for everyone in the team to take damage at different levels. Healers replenish the health bars and keep everyone active to continue working towards a successful end to the battle. This work to remove damage allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing their own damage or tanking on the enemies without having to worry about the attacks knocking them out of the fight permanently.

You wanna know what I do as a healer if the tank pulls small and I'm not running ahead? I spam Holy/Art of War/Gravity/Dyskrasia and ignore my actual role entirely. Why? Tanks literally don't take enough damage for me to ever need to look at them in a three mob scenario, especially on Sage/Scholar. In fact, the outgoing damage is so minimal a DPS can easily tank three mobs and be perfectly fine. Single pulls are so laughable as you climb levels they render tanks or healers completely obsolete. If you were to single pull any 50+ dungeon (and honestly, some below that), you'd be better off with TDDD or HDDD. Every other MMO with a holy trinity doesn't allow for that as mobs will actually kill DPS or Healers. They can hardly scratch either in FFXIV.

There's a reason people meme Warrior needs a green icon.

If a dps/healer is running and pulling, you ARE slowing your dungeon run down. you're job is to kill stuff, or heal, not pull or tank stuff, unless the tank misses an add. you then grab it, and take it TO the tank.

Thing is, this is objectively false. Most mob packs are close enough it takes all of a single GCD's pace to aggro them and they'll come running to right where everyone already is. In the few exceptions this isn't the case, you still aren't accounting for everyone having less abilities to throw at mobs if you single pull. Since you have Dark Knight in your profile, I'll use it as an example. If you do a single pull, you won't have Living Shadow, Shadowbringer or Salted Earth/Darkness for the next pull until that set of mobs is nearly dead, which means you won't have them for the boss either. No matter how you slice it that's a bet loss to your killing efficiency. And it much worse for DPS jobs. Dragoon loses out on Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond, Stardiver, Dragon Sight and Battle Litany. All won't be available because you split up two baby pulls. Not to mention, it's only a DPS gain for most jobs to AoE on three targets or more. So you're slowing down by virtue of there being less to kill.

All this compared to losing a single GCD or two to run ahead, tag the second group of mobs and stand on the tank while they come running. It takes a handful of seconds at best and vastly increases the efficiency. The sole exception are early ARR dungeons where melee lack AoE abilities and in general most jobs don't have a good kit to play with.

There is never a scenario where pulling a second pack for the tank takes longer. Single pulling adds upwards of 10+ minutes. Even Trusts can handle double packs. In fact, I've made Alphinaud do the partial super pull in Mt. Gulg. You can't go the whole distance but you can absolutely make the Trusts deal with 6+ mobs. So any tank pulling less is admitting they're worse than a bot.

How hard is this? No place in the game does it say a dps can pull, no where in the ToS does it say anyone can pull.

Nowhere does it say they can't either. You are told, as a tank, however, to "take aggro off your ally" by the Hall of the Novice NPCs. Which implies letting the DPS die for petty reasons doesn't make for a good player.

ToS DOES say, that if you are interfering with the game of another that is grounds for report.

Pulling extra mobs doesn't interfere with someone's gameplay because the intent isn't malicious. Intentionally allowing them to die, on the other hand, does.

[Vedfur]

Tank is the one who is ''leading'' the party and sets the pace. DPS and Healer should react to what the tank does. That is if nothing is said beforehand.
i know playing a healer or dps that a tank that do single pulls can be annoying but as a tank its also annoying playing a tank if the dps or healer starts pulling.

tanks who does too small pulls aren't right and dps and healers who pulls aren't right, both are wrong!

although in this game this is a very minor issue since threat isn't an issue.

[Shurrikhan]

Tank is the one who is ''leading'' the party and sets the pace. DPS and Healer should react to what the tank does.

Not quite. Available capacities should set the pace.

It makes sense then to have whoever can consistently track and act in accordance with those capacities be the pace-setter, especially if their face-pulling conveniences the party as a whole. The latter bonus is typically most true of a tank, but if the tank actually knows less how to track and plan around the party's capacities than others, then their leading defeats the whole point of that leadership.

although in this game this is a very minor issue since threat isn't an issue.

Outside of the handful of people in this thread attempting to take a moral high ground for their purposefully neglecting their jobs and griefing their party, this. That's the crux of it.

[kcj]

If you pull and you're not the tank, the healer reserves the right to let you take a dirt nap to think it over.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

Ahhh. This post is the best.

Hey Community, remember back in Stormblood when tanks were like 'Hey guys I'm going to need you to handle your own mitigation so I can do more damage' and everyone said 'Yes daddy/mommy/thotty?'

Remember how they 'streamlined' the roles in Shadowbringers so we would all be really clear on what was expected of them after a horde of asshats decided to force casual players into following tank meta because the internet said it was BiS? Won't that be fun to go through again?

The devs, historically, don't like this kind of role-swapping. The kind that typically messes with the rigid role system the game has. Is it inherently harmful? No. But it undermines the game's basic structure and the more new players are exposed to it, the more they will think its the way things are done when it's really just a current trend that changes whenever the jobs are tweaked.


But it's whatever. I'm content to follow the rabbit hole to see what happens.

But if it's griefing for the tank to let you handle a pack of ads you PURPOSELY grabbed (not on accident or after a mutual understanding as to what you were doing), then its also griefing for healers to leave you dead after you died to an avoidable mechanic for the third-plus time during the same battle while they focus on people who know the content or for your fellow DPS to steal your Limit Break because you sat on it too long. (That's pretty weak but I honestly have no idea how DPS grief each other XD).

Moral of the story? Consult your team. Play your role. Don't be a dick. When a team is all in agreement, its a beautiful and amazing thing. Too bad its so rare.

[rxantos]

The tank responsibility is to keep agro, group the mobs and mitigate. Not to save you when you pull on your own.