YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

[Jojoya]

Or, you know, they go on to 3-man the full-pulls at still greater speed than working around the tank's insistence on single-pulls? That is the more frequent outcome when the tank is the 1 opposite the remaining 3, after all...

Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking. DPS doesn't have the mitigation from gear needed to handle more than one pack at a time and the tankbusters on some bosses are going to be a problem once you get past the trash.

Probably it would work if its 3 savage raiders queueing together and the healer is SCH. The average player just doesn't have the skill level needed to pull it off in higher level dungeons and it's generally the average (or below player) you're running across in roulettes.

[Shurrikhan]

Somehow I feel like that doesn't happen at all in dungeons past level 50 if it's a group formed entirely through random matchmaking.

Maybe it's just the time of nights, but... hasn't been that uncommon here. I've had a quite a few competent 3-man runs, be that a lack of heals or tank. Those were when most players were nearing or hitting the ilvl caps for said dungeons, true, but it came down mostly to who opened, use of sprint if we had a phys. ranged, and dropping some AoE damage in favor of ST so that the lower geared dps could pull off the higher-geared one as the first's mitigation CDs depletes.

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

[Silly_Rabbit]

YPYT mentality is indeed ego issue.

On other hand setting pace for tank you don't know is toxic behavior.
Maybe it's someone new to tanking or player with slower reflexes or someone who gets stressed out seeing their HP bar jump up and down.
Personally i let tank go at pace he is comfortable with.

[Jojoya]

Such was also common for speedrun leveling back in ARR, oddly enough, but it doesn't seem like it'd been completely forgotten / unable to be picked back up.

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

[Shurrikhan]

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50). And going in intentionally to do a 3 man run is very different from working with a party created through random matchmaking. If you're doing it intentionally, you're generally doing it with other players that you know and trust, who already know the dungeon thoroughly and are prepared for what needs to be done.

I said nothing about going in as a 3-man. Every one of those times was with a healer who went afk for 5+ minutes at a time, catching up a boss or more later, or a tank who attempted to hold a run hostage to their pace (which would sometimes even include reading the lore tidbits despite this having been after the inclusion of Exploration Mode).

I mentioned ARR speed-leveling via dungeons because at the time, non-traditional compositions were typically faster and tank enmity margins weren't so bloated, causing people to be more willing and ready to make use of HP bars beyond just the tank's.

[Frizze]

Why is this thread even at 130 posts?

Oh thats easy. Tell someone(or a group of people) with an ego problem that they HAVE an ego problem, and they go into ego defense mode. Apparently for 130+ posts.

I can see the ARR dungeons happening without a tank's help (why I had said past level 50).

Ive been in dozens(hundreds?) of parties over the years where either the tank or healer had connection issues. Your roulette suddenly becomes a 3 man. If the party isnt confident, sure you can sit there for 5+ mins doing nothing hoping they return. If the tank is good? You shouldnt need a healer, just go. Is the healer good? Then you do not need a tank for really any dungeon. A tank doesnt make a dungeon run possible, they make it efficient. And of course, if the person who disco'd was a DPS, you dont really even notice. The fights just go a bit slower. Source: I have personally done this in every dungeon through the end of Shadowbringers, and some of the Endwalker dungeons too.

[Regentwill]

It's only griefing if it's creating an unfavorable equilibrium of stress to pursuit of the party's interest. Most want to complete their daily in a reasonable time. Most do not want to be stressed in doing so. Being a team player is essentially acting the best you can towards both priorities.

If 3/4s of the party want to go faster, would not be stressed out by going faster, and are not bottlenecked by the tank (regardless of their refusing to use CDs or do anything but spam Unleash) for anything other than courtesy (undeserved, in this case), then the tank demanding the rest tiptoe around their domineering ego is the one griefing.


Consider: What's the stressor there? Not a content mechanic, but a social factor -- and from a single person, opposite a majority.

And if the tank refuses to take threat on those pulls, it's no longer incidental; it's intentional. How would that possibly not be griefing/trolling/gameplay sabotage? It is actively and disproportionately negatively affecting one's party, to a lower average quality for everyone, in a way that relies upon breaking from a much more fundamental responsibility (not just pulling and pace-setting, but actually tanking).

YPYT is purposely ignoring one's actual responsibilities (not just their typical perks/prerogatives) with the express purpose of harming other players in order to enforce a minority preference over that majority. That is, definitively, entitled griefing.

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

[Canadane]

Just as a quick note, people being against YPYT are definitely not in the Majority. I have no numbers to back that up, but I've been playing MMO's long time and people thinking DPS should be able to pull is very much a new thing and almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

[SassyAssassin]

Gotta be a real pussy as a tank to refuse to pick the mobs from another player lol, meow

[Regentwill]

almost exclusive to this game.

Never played XI eh?

I can admit that no I did not play Final Fantasy XI but see above quote. I said Almost, as there is nothing that is completely absolute. Those old games were more of how that was handled. Ranged DPS go out, pull the mob to the waiting group, group DPS's mobs down. I am aware of that, I did not play XI but I did play Everquest and I think the pulling system was similar. But pretty much from the introduction of instanced dungeons it has not been that way.

EDIT: Actually taking that into consideration, I can see why a lot of FFXI players who moved to FF14 (which makes sense) would not be aware that a lot of other games people play use a different pulling system. Kind of eye opening there.