Why are Criterion dungeons so hard?

[OlafQuintessa]

Spent a couple of hours trying the new Criterion dungeon out and got part way through the first boss. Having done a little Savage and EX in Endwalker, the Criterion dungeon comes across as yet more Savage level content. Why so hard? Especially since there's a Savage mode for it as well.

I was hoping we'd get some sort of middle ground - a duty that takes maybe 3 hours to clear for an average player. I can see the Criterion dungeon taking a lot longer than that.

I've seen a lot of people drift away from the game after msq because there isn't a good endgame for casual/average players - Savage/EX is very hard and time consuming, while normal stuff gets repetitive - and there's nothing inbetween. It's sad to see people go, but the right level of challenge isn't there to keep people around. The Criterion dungeon was an opportunity to fill that niche, but sadly I don't think it's going to help.

[Vidu]

People have been requesting difficult content for light parties for quite a while now - this content is supposed to fullfill that request.

One thing that makes Savage so difficult is that you need 7 more people to attempt it - static scheduldes are one of the things that really complicate Savage. So we got Criterion Dungeons for those who want that challenge, but dont want to work around 8 different scheduldes and reducing that to 4 instead.

I agree that some "middle ground" content would be nice, too - but at least I was never under the impression that Criterion was supposed to fill that niche; it was supposed to be Savage but for light parties.

[chizLemons]

I'm sorry Criterion is not for you but there IS a high demand for it. For casual players, there's variant - it's easy, but very replayable and focused on lore.

I haven't tried Criterion yet to comment on it, but EX trials is meant to be the in-between content you're asking for, maybe give it a chance again. It's really not that hard compared to Savage. If you want it easier, maybe get to doing older EX content unsynced, there's still a lot that are worth farming. Or maybe wait for a few patches before getting to a more recent one, it gets easier as iLvl increases.

[Espon]

I think Criterion dungeon difficulty is fine. People have been asking for difficult 4-man dungeon content for a long time, and I hope to see if expanded upon, even if I don't personally clear it.

I think the perfect middle ground is something that does not exist this expansion, and that was Bozja. If you were there when the content was first released, the place was a challenge but the mechanics weren't on the same level as Extreme trials, however they were harder than what you find in Alliance Raids and normal content. Critical engagements could easily kill you if you messed up, failing Castrum Lacus Litore was a high possibility, and Delubrum Reginae made you cry about how you just lost most of your mettle.

Sure, they're easy now but that's because you can get carried by people that now know the fights and bring good Lost Actions. The key was doing it at release when no one knew what to do. You'll rarely see wipes in Dungeons and Alliance Raids when people first go through them unless there's a specific mechanic that you need to see at least once to figure it out (for example, Nald'thal's scale).

[rxantos]

Mostly because of the surprise sucker mechanics. You need several runs to figure them out.
Due to my ping being 150ms I cannot do them. But I am sure it would be relatively easy for someone with a 15 ms ping once you figure out the "surprise sucker" mechanics. To their credit, they do show most of the surprise sucker in the variant one. So if you feel stuck in criterion. Do the variants until you do the mechanics perfectly.

The target audience is people that want a challenge. Which is maybe less than 10% of the population. But is nice that is there. Of course, most complain about their rewards as they are not attracted by the challenge, but the rewards.

At the end of day. Do you want a grind game in which you have to treat it as a job as otherwise you wouldn't get the gear needed to continue your adventure? Or do you want a game that respects your time?

I know I would unsub the moment it changes into a grind fest. As I have no time for treating it as a job.

[HuaTuo]

I like the new criterion dung. It's not easy - and there are no checkpoints either, which makes is pretty time consuming coz if you spend an hour clearing 1st 2 bosses, you'll only have half hour to practice the 3rd. I think this really sucks coz if you do this content through PF.. let's leave it at that.. What I find really disappointing is the reward for doing all that. I'm sorry but some materia and mount (a chair, of all things), which contribute nothing to my character power, is inadequate. To me this would be far more exciting if the rewards were worth the effort. No1 is asking for some 635 ilvl BiS. But some alternative to crafting gear with slightly higher ilvl? absolutely!

[DeliNote]

I think that part of the problems stems from the fact that it was kinda-ish advertised as normal/ex from the onset?
I could be wrong but that was the general idea that I also got, but I knew they wanted to go for something more difficult on the 4-man scope so I wasn't really caught unaware.
Those who had that idea however, they stepped into it and were bombarded with it's Ex+ difficulty-- this is NOT comparable to normal.

With that said, like chizLemons pointed out there's already the EX trials that cover that middle ground pretty well in my opinion, and that is something that people should DEFINITELY go experience and try out BEFORE stepping into Criterion dungeons.

Had they went with their normal formula of: Variant = mega casual/exploration (love the content itself), Criterion = Normal/middle ground, then you'd have a Criterion = Ex, then a Criterion = Savage, not only would it be, in my opinion, a MASSIVE amount of wasted resources, how would it be any different from what we already have?
Criterion was meant to fulfill a very long requested niche of 4-man HARD content that doesn't hold punches, it's not meant to have a "middle ground" you know? Even if I understand what you're saying.
They might add a middle ground eventually but I don't really see it happening.

If we talk about the rewards, however... well that's another story, I'll leave that probably to another thread.

Right now with this added content in terms of difficulty from easiest to hardest:

- Normal
- Variant
- Ex trials
- Criterion
- Savage and Criterion savage (no point in saying X or Y is harder since it's a different party size)
- Ultimate
- SE getting their crap together and actually provide a proper reward structure by restructuring the current existing one.

[Listrella]

I'm sorry Criterion is not for you but there IS a high demand for it. For casual players, there's variant - it's easy, but very replayable and focused on lore.

I haven't tried Criterion yet to comment on it, but EX trials is meant to be the in-between content you're asking for, maybe give it a chance again. It's really not that hard compared to Savage. If you want it easier, maybe get to doing older EX content unsynced, there's still a lot that are worth farming. Or maybe wait for a few patches before getting to a more recent one, it gets easier as iLvl increases.

I want more for our level than justt extreme trials (we're not getting one of those for months anyway), there are only thing that are at the right challenge level for me, everything else is too hard or too easy, I was hopign criterion dungeons would add that but but sadly I was mistaken. the extreme trials are just 1 fight. THe varaiant dungeon is cool but way too easy, barely above a normal dungeon. I do want a challenge, just not taken too far.

[OlafQuintessa]

Thank you for all your responses! It's nice to talk about it, and to hear what you think. I run a community on OCE and the raiders all seem to love Criterion since they get a break from organising full parties!

The reason I thought Criterion would be easier is because a Savage mode was already advertised. I don't understand why the normal mode is as hard as Savage, plus there's a Savage mode as well. Maybe they could make more actions available in the normal Criterion mode and allow more Raises from the healer.

EX may be a bit easier than Savage but it still takes a lot of time and skill to get through. Based on my experiences with EX2 and EX4 in EW it might take 3 to 5 evenings (2 hours a sesh) to get a group of average players through it. I think you have to be pretty committed to stick with it. People don't have a lot of time, and probably want to spend their game time doing other things too.

Ultima Unreal was close to the kind of difficulty I'd call a middle ground. I could take just about anyone into Ultima and run them through it in an evening (say 2 hours of play). Then we'd have a weekly challenge to do that was accessible and fun but also kept you on your toes. The current Unreal is up there with EX and there's much less interest, because people soon realise it's so much more work to learn.

It's a shame to see people go. Once msq is done there's a lot of desire to group up with friends and take on a challenge. Two hours is valuable time and everyone wants to see something for it - decent progress so everyone can look forward to next time! The current Criterion means people spend 2 hours getting only part way through the first boss, and a full clear of the whole dungeon feels out of reach.

Thank you again for all your polite responses! It's appreciated!

[Pibz]

Because it's a game. Games should be something with an inherent challenge to them and where you can always get better. Not mindless button pushing eye candy. The regular content should never have gotten as easy as it did over the years to begin with