Why are Criterion dungeons so hard?

[OlafQuintessa]

Spent a couple of hours trying the new Criterion dungeon out and got part way through the first boss. Having done a little Savage and EX in Endwalker, the Criterion dungeon comes across as yet more Savage level content. Why so hard? Especially since there's a Savage mode for it as well.

I was hoping we'd get some sort of middle ground - a duty that takes maybe 3 hours to clear for an average player. I can see the Criterion dungeon taking a lot longer than that.

I've seen a lot of people drift away from the game after msq because there isn't a good endgame for casual/average players - Savage/EX is very hard and time consuming, while normal stuff gets repetitive - and there's nothing inbetween. It's sad to see people go, but the right level of challenge isn't there to keep people around. The Criterion dungeon was an opportunity to fill that niche, but sadly I don't think it's going to help.

[Vidu]

People have been requesting difficult content for light parties for quite a while now - this content is supposed to fullfill that request.

One thing that makes Savage so difficult is that you need 7 more people to attempt it - static scheduldes are one of the things that really complicate Savage. So we got Criterion Dungeons for those who want that challenge, but dont want to work around 8 different scheduldes and reducing that to 4 instead.

I agree that some "middle ground" content would be nice, too - but at least I was never under the impression that Criterion was supposed to fill that niche; it was supposed to be Savage but for light parties.

[Shurrikhan]

People have been requesting difficult content for light parties for quite a while now - this content is supposed to fullfill that request.

Right, but that content can't really mirror or compete with Savage... if it's tuned around already having Savage gear. That makes it an extension of Savage, not an alternative way to experience difficult content for those who can't meet static schedules or dislike the scripted-ness of XIV raids.

If it had been designed as asked for (a Savage-alternative as challenging content nonetheless accessible to anyone), it probably wouldn't use player ilvl at all, instead following only one's secondary stat distribution. That would allow for precise tuning and independence from Savage gearing while also keeping its difficulty relevant across multiple tiers.

[Espon]

Right, but that content can't really mirror or compete with Savage... if it's tuned around already having Savage gear. That makes it an extension of Savage, not an alternative way to experience difficult content for those who can't meet static schedules or dislike the scripted-ness of XIV raids.

If it had been designed as asked for (a Savage-alternative as challenging content nonetheless accessible to anyone), it probably wouldn't use player ilvl at all, instead following only one's secondary stat distribution. That would allow for precise tuning and independence from Savage gearing while also keeping its difficulty relevant across multiple tiers.

You don't need savage gear, it's doable as long as you meet the ilvl requirement and use food. The enrage timers are not that tight, but these mechanics are designed to be as difficult as something you would see in a savage raid and failing them will likely either result in either death or getting a heavy damage down debuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by an alternative for "the scripted-ness of XIV raids." Everything is scripted in this game, from dungeon bosses to raid bosses, random enemies and those found in FATEs. There are no fights that will just throw things at you randomly, they're all designed around timing and patterns. Some fights will use mechanics in a random order or have variations to make sure you're paying attention, but every fight will always follow an AI script.

[Shurrikhan]

You don't need savage gear, it's doable as long as you meet the ilvl requirement and use food.

"Doable" is not the same as "designed around".

I'm not sure what you mean by an alternative for "the scripted-ness of XIV raids." Everything is scripted in this game.

A raid is, essentially, just its script. In criterion dungeons you at least have things breaking that up. It's not just a script per instance.
__________

Again, my point is merely that if it was meant to be a sort of alternate or independent content of a fixed difficulty, its gearing would likewise be independent and fixed.

[Arohk]

Again, my point is merely that if it was meant to be a sort of alternate or independent content of a fixed difficulty, its gearing would likewise be independent and fixed.

You can clear it with crafted gear, if that is not good enough for you, go do savage and get that fine loot.
There is already a lack of content where your gear matters.
Dungeons scale you down, fates scale you down, your savage gear is only good in savage content, there is only a lack of rewards in Criteon which results in not many people actualyl wanting to clear it.

[chizLemons]

I'm sorry Criterion is not for you but there IS a high demand for it. For casual players, there's variant - it's easy, but very replayable and focused on lore.

I haven't tried Criterion yet to comment on it, but EX trials is meant to be the in-between content you're asking for, maybe give it a chance again. It's really not that hard compared to Savage. If you want it easier, maybe get to doing older EX content unsynced, there's still a lot that are worth farming. Or maybe wait for a few patches before getting to a more recent one, it gets easier as iLvl increases.

[DeliNote]

I think that part of the problems stems from the fact that it was kinda-ish advertised as normal/ex from the onset?
I could be wrong but that was the general idea that I also got, but I knew they wanted to go for something more difficult on the 4-man scope so I wasn't really caught unaware.
Those who had that idea however, they stepped into it and were bombarded with it's Ex+ difficulty-- this is NOT comparable to normal.

With that said, like chizLemons pointed out there's already the EX trials that cover that middle ground pretty well in my opinion, and that is something that people should DEFINITELY go experience and try out BEFORE stepping into Criterion dungeons.

Had they went with their normal formula of: Variant = mega casual/exploration (love the content itself), Criterion = Normal/middle ground, then you'd have a Criterion = Ex, then a Criterion = Savage, not only would it be, in my opinion, a MASSIVE amount of wasted resources, how would it be any different from what we already have?
Criterion was meant to fulfill a very long requested niche of 4-man HARD content that doesn't hold punches, it's not meant to have a "middle ground" you know? Even if I understand what you're saying.
They might add a middle ground eventually but I don't really see it happening.

If we talk about the rewards, however... well that's another story, I'll leave that probably to another thread.

Right now with this added content in terms of difficulty from easiest to hardest:

- Normal
- Variant
- Ex trials
- Criterion
- Savage and Criterion savage (no point in saying X or Y is harder since it's a different party size)
- Ultimate
- SE getting their crap together and actually provide a proper reward structure by restructuring the current existing one.

[Jojoya]

I think that part of the problems stems from the fact that it was kinda-ish advertised as normal/ex from the onset?

In the first 6.2 Live Letter, Criterion was described as EX in difficulty and Criterion Savage as Savage in difficulty. Like any new EX/Savage content, players needed to allow for a learning period instead of expecting to be able to faceroll the content as soon as they went in.

I think part of what is throwing players off is the increased personal responsibility in Criterion due to the smaller party size and the resurrection restrictions. It's usually a lot easier to recover in a party of 8 if one player goes down. It's harder when one goes down in a party of 4 and the party is taking heavy damage.

[Listrella]

I'm sorry Criterion is not for you but there IS a high demand for it. For casual players, there's variant - it's easy, but very replayable and focused on lore.

I haven't tried Criterion yet to comment on it, but EX trials is meant to be the in-between content you're asking for, maybe give it a chance again. It's really not that hard compared to Savage. If you want it easier, maybe get to doing older EX content unsynced, there's still a lot that are worth farming. Or maybe wait for a few patches before getting to a more recent one, it gets easier as iLvl increases.

I want more for our level than justt extreme trials (we're not getting one of those for months anyway), there are only thing that are at the right challenge level for me, everything else is too hard or too easy, I was hopign criterion dungeons would add that but but sadly I was mistaken. the extreme trials are just 1 fight. THe varaiant dungeon is cool but way too easy, barely above a normal dungeon. I do want a challenge, just not taken too far.