A game for 4 year olds

[kaynide]

There is a key difference between a 'redemption arc' and an 'atonement arc'.

I would describe a 'redemption arc' is largely an arc where a character becomes better for the sake and in the eyes of others. To do right after they've done wrong, and to be recognized for it by others; very much an external bettering first and foremost. Redemption is an act done to something, so to be redeemed somebody has to specifically declare you redeemed. FFXIV actually doesn't do this as much as you first think, but I would say the best examples are probably Estinien and Fordola; Estinien's admittedly coming from more of a moral dark grey than Fordola's straight heel-face turn, but they're both working to do better in the eyes of the societies they wronged.

An 'atonement arc', however, seems to be more of FFXIV's favorite: an arc where the character betters themselves for their own sake first and foremost, not asking for the validaton or approval of others--including potentially the audience. While external validation may happen, the central change and motivator comes from within, from the person themselves wanting to. We've seen this on individual levels; I'm not sure if I'd call Ysayle or Gaius the most prominent example (probably depends on what you played most recently), but they're both pretty prevalent. We've also seen it on the societal level, probably most clearly with Eulmore.

The Omicrons aren't a redemption arc, they're an atonement arc; they're a society that wants to be better than the people they were, because they don't want to be that anymore. Sure, they have some help in finding a direction for that will, but they're doing it more than anything because they want to.

A bit of splitting hairs there, but that’s fine.

Atonement can just as easily mean repaying a debt or making things right for wrongs committed (aka jail time form a crime), and redemption can just as easily carry heavy religious connotations (aka redeemed from sin).

That is to say, a murderer with a 20 year sentence might repent and find God and have redemption 5 years into his sentence, but he is still serving those 20 years to atone for his crimes in the eyes of society.

Ultimately, when I say a story of redemption, I don’t think anyone is going to confuse what I mean.

[Cleretic]

A bit of splitting hairs there, but that’s fine.

Atonement can just as easily mean repaying a debt or making things right for wrongs committed (aka jail time form a crime), and redemption can just as easily carry heavy religious connotations (aka redeemed from sin).

That is to say, a murderer with a 20 year sentence might repent and find God and have redemption 5 years into his sentence, but he is still serving those 20 years to atone for his crimes in the eyes of society.

Ultimately, when I say a story of redemption, I don’t think anyone is going to confuse what I mean.

My terminology might not be perfect, but we're definitely looking at a story of internally-motivated betterment with the Omicrons more than we are an external one. And personally I find those stories a lot more compelling and believable, in large part because it more readily allows the audience not to believe it if they don't want to. If that arc is mostly for their own sake, then the story rarely ends up asking you to agree with their improvement, which leads to me finding my own stance much more.

The game lets you hate Gaius even after everything, it doesn't really let you hate Fordola. (lucky for me I don't, Fordola was the best part of Stormblood.)

[kaynide]

My terminology might not be perfect, but we're definitely looking at a story of internally-motivated betterment with the Omicrons more than we are an external one. And personally I find those stories a lot more compelling and believable, in large part because it more readily allows the audience not to believe it if they don't want to. If that arc is mostly for their own sake, then the story rarely ends up asking you to agree with their improvement, which leads to me finding my own stance much more.

The game lets you hate Gaius even after everything, it doesn't really let you hate Fordola. (lucky for me I don't, Fordola was the best part of Stormblood.)

No worries- I follow what your saying, and I agree- the overall narrative in places of XIV of improvement for its own intrinsic worth is usually a good story…and there have absolutely been some really weird/crap points in the plot when we have agree with things because “I dunno, reasons I guess”.

[Lyth]

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

[jameseoakes]

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

I thought Emet demonstrated that Dynamis and Ather are at least equal when he creation magicked up the flowers in UT.

[aveyond-dreams]

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

Precisely this. I look forward to Venat joining him on this farm so that she can also atone for the genocide she inflicted on her species. Hopefully we can make use of that muddied model they made of her for her shinning post-Elpis sequence and have that remain her permanent appearance evermore. Unfortunately Hermes has no such model, so a simple face paint will have to suffice. Given that he caused this mess in the first place, I think it would be excellent for him to do the most intense physical labor on the farm.

[RukoBoshi]

One thing that I will agree on is that it would be hilarious if the owners of the Last Dregs brought back the Amaurotines to work on their farm using the power of dynamis. I can picture the look on Emet's face on being brought back by a vastly superior power beyond anything he is capable of wielding, being handed a shovel and then being told to plant carrots of happiness to atone for his sins.

Do this to Zenos, make him use his scythe to gather on the new planet.

[Lyth]

That largely depends on your interpretation of that scene. Did Emet-Selch savagely attack Meteion with a bouquet of aetheric flowers in order to defeat her, or did we simply win over her heart in a battle of dynamis? I don't think it's all that difficult to figure out which.

[jameseoakes]

That largely depends on your interpretation of that scene. Did Emet-Selch savagely attack Meteion with a bouquet of aetheric flowers in order to defeat her, or did we simply win over her heart in a battle of dynamis? I don't think it's all that difficult to figure out which.

What are you talking about, from what I remember the whole point of that scene was to show to Metion that there was more that despair at Ultima Thule.

[Alleo]

Honestly for me the omicrons are fine because they are recreations of dead beings and their race already suffered the consequences of their actions. They paid the price for their actions with the destruction of their whole race. Just like how the (absolutely cute!) fishpeople have brought their own death by polluting their planet.

They have suffered and then afterwards were bascially locked up into Meteions prison for thousand of years. Suffering and in pain (as Meteion states before she flew into the bubble) Now they get a second chance at life by being recreated with some of the memories of the past still with them.

I mean if Emet Selch one day gets reborn should we still paint the new person as a villian that slew countless of stars too?