A game for 4 year olds

[Absimiliard]

I mean if we cant forgive recreated beings than doesnt that mean that we also should never forgive the Garleans and any other race that has done something horrible? I understand your view though, I have disliked that they tried to paint people like Yotsuyu or Gaius in a much nicer light than they (imo) should be. But if they can do that with living people I just dont see a reason why it shouldnt be fine with recreations of long death beings.

After all even Emet got a nice fanservice goodbye and that person has helped in destroying whole planets too.

The problem, as I said before, is that these faux Omicrons have the same characteristics and intentions as the originals. They were even prepared to send out a signal to the original Omicrons, which unlike the other races in Ultima Thule aren't extinct. It's noted this would have seen them resume their mission of destroying all life, which their counterparts in Ultima Thule were well aware of. In other words, they were fully and knowingly willing to be complicit in the eradication of every living thing on every world.

The Garleans mostly employed the least amount of force possible when acquiring new territory, and the people they conquered mostly got on fine so long as they stayed in line. Depending on governor, of course; we know some territories, notably those ruled by Zenos, weren't treated well at all. In any case, the Garleans weren't of one mind. Enough of them disapproved of the Empire's expansionist practices for it to be a proper political issue. At this point they have no Empire, and the numbers of Garlean purebloods have been reduced so heavily that maintaining the population is probably no longer possible. And beyond all that? They, including the ones who were against it from the start, aren't being forgiven. The story makes this evident. Garlemald is screwed.

Emet-Selch may have gotten a "fanservice sendoff," but it's made clear he and the other Ascians aren't forgiven for their actions either. It is quite possible to understand, even sympathize, with a person or persons without condoning the things they've done. Atrocities are atrocities, but in their case those atrocities were driven by something just about everyone can relate to.

Rather than just giving the Omicrons a pass right out of the gate, why couldn't it have been something to work toward? That's all I'm saying. Forgiveness rarely comes easily, after all. It's something that should've taken time and hard work.

[MikkoAkure]

The Garleans mostly employed the least amount of force possible when acquiring new territory, and the people they conquered mostly got on fine so long as they stayed in line.

70,000 Dalmascans died in 1 battle against the Garleans at Nalbina Fortress. Dalmasca and Nhalmasque were taken by overwhelming force through the use of airships and then conscripted their citizens to fight their wars against other nations.

Rather than just giving the Omicrons a pass right out of the gate, why couldn't it have been something to work toward? That's all I'm saying. Forgiveness rarely comes easily, after all. It's something that should've taken time and hard work.

If this was MSQ, that 100% would have happened. But the Dragonstar and the Omicrons are a side story of a side story for beast tribe dailies and there's only so much that can be put into it, especially since the beast tribe dailies are about all the aliens in Ultima Thule and not just the two.

The Garleans will probably have their own reconciliation storyline eventually, now that we just got over their collapse. They're more central to the plot of the game after all.

[Absimiliard]

70,000 Dalmascans died in 1 battle against the Garleans at Nalbina Fortress. Dalmasca and Nhalmasque were taken by overwhelming force through the use of airships and then conscripted their citizens to fight their wars against other nations.

Note the word "mostly" in my initial observation. The Garleans didn't really stand to gain much from conquering a bunch of ruins and dead bodies, which the game does tell us. Doesn't meant there haven't been times they employed extreme force. It just means it's probably not going to be their go-to if it can be helped. If they really wanted to just "win" they could've ended nearly every war they started almost immediately by fielding a bunch of airships and turning every country they visited into a smoking crater.

The Garleans will probably have their own reconciliation storyline eventually, now that we just got over their collapse. They're more central to the plot of the game after all.

I have a sneaking suspicion this may not occur, or if it does it won't be for a good while. The developers were looking to push the game away from Venat, the Ascians, Garlemald, etc. with Endwalker. Their original, more in-depth plans were scrapped in favor of the quicker approach. At any rate, if moving on with the story is the objective, then Garlemald may well not be touched again for a long time.

[MikkoAkure]

Note the word "mostly." The Garleans don't really benefit from conquering a bunch of ruins and corpses, and the game tells us as much more than once.

Considering their small core population size that you yourself pointed out and lack of a casus belli over the lands of Othard and Eorzea, the Garleans don't really benefit from conquering anything anyway. 70,000 Dalmascans died defending their 1000-year-old kingdom from an invading force that had nothing to do with it at all.

The Garlean Empire collapsed in part due to overreach and it was designed from the ground up to be unstable and to ruin as many lives as possible in a short amount of time in order to brew conflict that would lead to a Calamity. The Garlean Empire did not exist to improve anyone's life. You had mentioned the Populares, but they were themselves a weak enough force in Garlean government and society that they were purged off-camera without Ascian influence or assistance. The IVth legion, led and largely made up of non-pureblood Garleans and taking advantage of political instability in Garlemald, went completely rogue and decided to carve out their own nation.

I have a sneaking suspicion this may not occur, or if it does it won't be for a good while. The developers were looking to push the game away from Venat, the Ascians, Garlemald, etc. with Endwalker. Their original, more in-depth plans were scrapped in favor of the quicker approach. At any rate, if moving on with the story is the objective, then Garlemald may well not be touched again for a long time.

I would be happy with them taking a break from the cosmic escalation and plot points going back to 1.0 so that Yoshi-P can make his own story unfettered from holdovers from before he joined. The reason why Garlemald fell like it did is simply because the original writers made it too strong and I think that was even called out before. I still think a reconciliation sidequest chain will come eventually but it will take time in both our world and the world of the game. Time for us to do something new. And for the people of Hydaelyn, most don't know the Ascians exist so the only face they know of being responsible for 60 years of conquering are the Garleans and the average citizens back home were fully drinking the Ascian kool-aid thinking they had the right to take over the world while dissenting voices weren't enough to have an impact and were purged anyway. So it will probably be done in a chain of quests and not be tied to a tribal quest done in one go.

[Absimiliard]

Except no one at any point claimed the Garlean Empire was good? Nor is anyone asserting the Empire as a whole was anything but harmful in the big picture, including to the Garleans themselves. So I'm not entirely sure what most of your post is responding to here. Are you perhaps conflating where I said the provinces were for the most part able to get on fine as long as they stayed in line with calling the Empire good? Because if so, that's a gross (and from my perspective seemingly intentional) mischaracterization of the statement.

As for the Populares; they were of limited number, yes, but that number was still significant enough for their absence to substantially worsen the already deteriorating political situation in Garlemald. That purge was not without consequence.

The "Ascian kool-aid" as it was put is called propaganda. Do you know what happens when you tell a people whose history is rife with oppression and suffering they're at risk of being sent right back to that situation? Nine times out of ten they'll buy into it, and it won't be a happy outcome for anyone. Combining doomsaying with a message of <insert demographic here> superiority is a recipe for disaster. It may work for a while, but it always comes at great cost for the people being taken in by it. The Garleans were as much victims as any of the countries their government conquered.

The Omicrons were probably in many ways much the same as the Garleans at some point in time. The difference, however, is that they were never stopped. Nor did they ever reconsider their actions in the least. The Omicrons forged ahead even after realizing what they were doing had become destruction for destruction's sake. To them it did not matter - there was no reasoning, no dialogue. They would simply move from world to world, converting or exterminating every life form they came into contact with. The Omicrons weren't manipulated by some millennia old survivor's guilt-ridden mastermind. They walked their path knowingly and without any remorse.

The Omicrons' reflections in Ultima Thule differ only in that they do not have the power to carve a swath of destruction across the universe the way their originals did. We're told quite expressly they would gladly do the same thing if given the opportunity and ability to do so. There is no apparent desire to reform at all. There's barely even any independent thought outside of one or two units that yet retain some semblance of will, a condition the game tells us would see them dismantled if ever it became known to their compatriots.

So then, looking between an already defeated people whose history of suffering was exploited by an impossibly old menace to create a system predicated on fearmongering and indoctrination and an entire species of murderbots whose greatest desire was and continues to be the extermination of every living thing, I'm not seeing where people are getting the idea the average Garlean citizen is somehow anywhere near as terrible.

[SannaR]

Again this argument is over a quest that is near the highest tribe rank. So it's not like the friendlyness is happening right out the gate. Heck there's even a daily where you're tasked with spreading the word about the cafe and one of the people you try to talk to is a dragon who can't find any peace and quiet due to the most recent ruckus and noisy rif-raf. They ask you if you know anything about it and you tell them about the cafe and they wander off grumbling about how they're hoping to find a place they won't hear the noise comeing from the Last Dregs.

The original Omincrons stopped partly due to not having anymore close enough neighbors and if Omega really was SIR and they ditched their mobile body for the one they flew across space in then their leader really did just abandon them while putting them all into standby mode accidentally. Seeing as our planet is no where near Omnicron occupied space.

[SentioftheHoukai]

I think it's interesting to see so much discourse around excusing the literal Terminators with likely bigger bodycounts than both the Ascians and Venat combined, topped by only the Meteia get continually excused for the atrocities they committed when this fandom still can't stop themselves from hating the Garleans and Ascians and inventing one thousand excuses for any other moral monsters. Never change, GCBTW, never change.

[Absimiliard]

topped by only the Meteia

There's a good chance their kill count beats out the Meteia's as well.

[kaynide]

I think it's interesting to see so much discourse around excusing the literal Terminators with likely bigger bodycounts than both the Ascians and Venat combined, topped by only the Meteia get continually excused for the atrocities they committed when this fandom still can't stop themselves from hating the Garleans and Ascians and inventing one thousand excuses for any other moral monsters. Never change, GCBTW, never change.

I mean, the Romans historically killed/fed to lions/enslaved my ancestors. Doesn’t mean I have to hate Romans now. Heck my grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and here I am married to a Japanese woman.

Whatever the Omicrons did may not be forgivable, but they didn’t do it to us. The Garleans have actively killed several friends and are directly responsible for a lot of current hardship that is near and real to us.

Call it NIMBY if you want, but I am more a sins of the father not being the sins of the son kinda guy.

[Carin-Eri]

I mean, the Romans historically killed/fed to lions/enslaved my ancestors. Doesn’t mean I have to hate Romans now. Heck my grandfather was at Pearl Harbor and here I am married to a Japanese woman.

Whatever the Omicrons did may not be forgivable, but they didn’t do it to us. The Garleans have actively killed several friends and are directly responsible for a lot of current hardship that is near and real to us.

Call it NIMBY if you want, but I am more a sins of the father not being the sins of the son kinda guy.

Okay - but to repeat what Absimiliard said a few posts back:

The problem, as I said before, is that these faux Omicrons have the same characteristics and intentions as the originals. They were even prepared to send out a signal to the original Omicrons, which unlike the other races in Ultima Thule aren't extinct. It's noted this would have seen them resume their mission of destroying all life, which their counterparts in Ultima Thule were well aware of. In other words, they were fully and knowingly willing to be complicit in the eradication of every living thing on every world.