A game for 4 year olds

[Brinne]

The question of if the Sundering can be equivalent to literal killing is one that has been litigated and re-litigated over and over again on these forums; I'm not particularly interested in rehashing it, so I'll just say trying to lessen the impact of and dress up in prettier, less harsh-sounding rhetoric what she materially did to masses of living people (that you at the very least can't argue didn't result in extremely premature death for all Ancients) will always feel pretty tasteless to me in context of similar historical maneuvers when it comes to destroying peoples' identities and cultures.

Your use of disease, however, given the recent pandemic, rings hollow, however.

Only if you want to seriously make an argument that something like the pandemic was actually for the greater good in making people 'strong' and hence societally worth putting us through, millions of deaths included, because suffering like it is necessary for us to 'grow' and 'discover ourselves.' The primary point of conversation here is Endwalker's rhetoric and framing, not judging anyone's personal experiences - as I said in my last post, I think whatever anyone is able to draw for themselves from any tragedy to enable them to keep living is valid and should not be policed - but Endwalker would argue on an entirely different scale that a world without the pandemic should be destroyed and replaced with a world with the pandemic, because it would in the long run make humanity 'stronger' and 'better.' That something like the pandemic on a societal scale is actually a blessing in disguise because it at least keeps us from growing too 'bored' and thus wanting to kill ourselves, or something.

Whether someone's individual personal experiences in coping with the pandemic left them in a personally better or worse place is, once more, a different conversation altogether. I am not looking to invalidate anyone's personal experiences with coping with any tragedy and how they pulled through the losses incurred by it. What I strongly object to is Endwalker's thesis is that, broadly, a pandemic-ridden world is preferable to a world without a pandemic on the basis of "making people stronger."

[Alleo]

Yet the Nibiru seems to have gone beyond making a world "wihout a pandemic". They have seemingly went so far as to take away their emotions. The good and the bad ones. I think the Omicron at the cafe says that by throwing away the bad emotions they also got rid of anything good too. There is also a Nibiru that has a speech bubble that mentions how he feel can feel a emotion again.

So they, the Ea and the Omicrons went far and beyond anything. Its beyond having a world where everyone lives comfortable. No they got rid of very important parts of themselves too. And as soon as something unwanted came around (either through knowlegde or Meteion) they bascially gave up because they could not handle it.

Unlike them we have the dragons, that still lived very long lifes and seemingly had quite the nice home until the Omicrons came. So its not like every single race fails because they gave up on suffering. Its just one possible outcome of a few different ones we are shown.

And about the Ancients: We are clearly shown that Venat and her team did not only try to talk with the Convocation after Zodiark saved the planet and where turned away but Venat herself tried to make the others see reason. Only when they still wanted to turn to Zodiark do we see her give up on them and turn into Hydealyn.

Lets also not forget that Venat and her group had not stopped them for the first two sacrificies. These were necessary and remarkable actions of those that gave themselves up to summon Zodiark. It was only when the Ancients made up their plan on sacrificing innocent lifes to get their past back, did they step in. Why would it be fine for the Ancients to bring unimaginable eternal suffering onto beings that dont want to give up their life (they would be stuck in Zodiark forever after all) but its the most horrible thing that Venat puts an end to that?

They could have continued on, unsundered and rebuilding. Honoring those that gave their lifes to give them the chance. Its up in the air if they would have ever defeated Meteion but maybe it could have happened. But instead of moving on, on starting anew, they got stuck in the past. In their lost paradise. And to get it back they were willing to sacrifice others.

[Tehmon]

Eh, we are just going to circle back to '' ancients wanted to sacrifice grass, flowers, ants and pigs '' with the third sacrifice discussion.

[SannaR]

Eh, we are just going to circle back to '' ancients wanted to sacrifice grass, flowers, ants and pigs '' with the third sacrifice discussion.

Yes, because why the heck not? I'm sure one side or the other of the argument will totally change their mind or move an inch from their fairly entrenched positions. Not that it matters what those souls were stuffed in. It was still souls that needed to be allowed to replicate enough in order to be culled. Which is never stated as being voluntary and should have made more people go wait why are we still condemning souls to exist for "forever" inside the world's savior then it seemed to. I'm sure someone will be eager to go "I think I heard that dead horse whinny.. time to go get my shovel."

[Cleretic]

This thread is so aggressively about relitigating the same pointless argument that everyone else has moved on from that someone's using the tags to take passive-aggressive swipes at someone who hasn't posted for two months. Which is a shame, I thought this was instead about the Omicron quests.

You can all do that however you want if that makes you happy (although I suspect it doesn't), but at this point I know I'm keen to move on to less tedious subjects.

[Alleluia]

Seems every thread on this forum devolves at some point into some version of the "Venat was evil, mkay?" argument eventually, regardless of what the topic is. Its exhausting and irritating.

[Eisi]

Only if you want to seriously make an argument that something like the pandemic was actually for the greater good in making people 'strong' and hence societally worth putting us through, millions of deaths included, because suffering like it is necessary for us to 'grow' and 'discover ourselves.'

I think Endwalker and FFXIV as a whole makes the opposite argument. I don't think that the calamities that the Ascians inflicted on Hydaelyn or all the world ending catastrophies from the Eighth Umbral Calamity (which was explicitly unwritten) to the apocalypses that befell the other stars were in any way portrayed in a positive light.

The primary point of conversation here is Endwalker's rhetoric and framing, not judging anyone's personal experiences - as I said in my last post, I think whatever anyone is able to draw for themselves from any tragedy to enable them to keep living is valid and should not be policed - but Endwalker would argue on an entirely different scale that a world without the pandemic should be destroyed and replaced with a world with the pandemic, because it would in the long run make humanity 'stronger' and 'better.' That something like the pandemic on a societal scale is actually a blessing in disguise because it at least keeps us from growing too 'bored' and thus wanting to kill ourselves, or something.

Endwalker argues no such thing. Do you remember that we stop the final days from happening? We don't embrace them or welcome them as a sort of neccessary evil or blessing in disguise.


"But the Sundering and Venat!" Yeah, yeah.

What you're doing is you're taking the bad and confusing writing around the Sundering, dynamis and the timeloop, which didn't properly deal with the fundamental issue that Endwalker actually set out to deal with at all and you're making it out to actually mean anything when in reality it already contradicts itself in multiple ways, even outside of the context of the rest of the game.

You make it seem as though the sh*t and nonsensical plot was actually the stringently following result of a coherent world view that you happen to disagree with, not just a poorly thought-out mess of contradictions.

Which means that you - at the end of the day - are an Endwalker defender.




Edit: Censored a swear word.

[Carin-Eri]

Seems every thread on this forum devolves at some point into some version of the "Venat was evil, mkay?" argument eventually, regardless of what the topic is. Its exhausting and irritating.

Totally agree. Seems very few threads - or at least the ones created to discuss lore - are spared the 'Evil Venat' soapbox.

[KageTokage]

I can't help but wonder if they're going to bother with an allied beast tribe quest this go-around.

The Arksodara and the Omicrons do have a common thread in that they're both working in food service, but I suppose we'll have to see what the Loporrits are about.

[Tehmon]

Overall I'm very happy with the tribe quest, and I like that Ultima Thule has something going for it now other than being a final area with simulations of past worlds suffering eternally. Though I wish we would've gotten more of the Nibirun people, but I kind of also like that they are essentially a '' work in progress '' and haven't fully grasped hope yet.