A game for 4 year olds

[Kozh]

I can't see the advantage for a now freed state to allow the Garleans to exert the same level of control as before.... It is no longer the story of the Warrior of Light at that point. It will be hidden off screen, as was Ala Mhigo for the most part.

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

Second, why would you want things to happen off-screen? I certainly hate how ala mhigo development was off-screen, I don't want that to happen to Garlemald too.

Also, I should point out: a lot of the people who tend to be fairly pro-imperialism or the like are usually picturing themselves as the empire in the equation, rather than the conquered.

I don't know about others, but personally for me, I actually pictures it from the provinces side. Also, wanting imperialism in game =/= wanting the same thing to happen in real life.

Kozh is basically just doing the thing Varis did in that one roundtable scene, of attacking the Alliance for the sole purpose of shallow point-scoring and trying to pull attention away from the fact he wants something worse.

Funny because from my pov you’re the one who’s doing this shallow point-scoring by creating strawman out of my discussion with Mikko. And please tell me where I said I want something “worse”? Because I clearly said that the provinces are free to join the Empire or not.

I'm curious what he thinks about Bozja, though, which is the closest thing the game will ever get to what he wants: an admission that life under Gabranth (it should be noted not the Empire itself, just Gabranth who took a more egalitarian approach) was better for some citizens and they should probably borrow those policies, while still striving to be a self-governing independent nation.

Actually I like Bozja story! Sure it ended in cliffhanger, and too short, but I suppose that’s the consequences of being relic story. Bajsaljen is probably one of my favorite character, and he’s a good/competent leader. Our nation is still fairly young compared to other countries, hence why story of our struggle for independence used to make me sentimental back when I’m young. Especially when I listen it from my grandparents who lived through that. Perhaps that’s also why even though many trashed Stormblood (which is actually fair since its writing isn’t as good), personally it’s nearly on par with ShB to me. Because I understand what Ala mhigan and Doman went through.

HOWEVER, I also relate *a lot* with the misija, more than I did with ala mhigan/doman/bozjan. After all, it wasn’t our colonizer who oppress us, but our fellow countrymen. Who denied us our culture, forbade us to speak our language, we couldn’t even use our name and had to change it to be more ““native””; simply because we’re minority. It happened for decades, with one of the worst period happen during my childhood. So yeah, you could say that it left lasting impression.

Is this the reason why I want some provinces to re-join the Empire? Perhaps, perhaps not, I’m not too sure tbh. Maybe it influence me a bit, but mostly I just want to see something more interesting than what we got.

[Cleretic]

Funny because from my pov you’re the one who’s doing this shallow point-scoring by creating strawman out of my discussion with Mikko. And please tell me where I said I want something “worse”? Because I clearly said that the provinces are free to join the Empire or not.

Literally in the post Mikko was quoting above the one you quoted, where you crack out entirely non-sequitir attacks against Gridania for no purpose other than to go 'see they're bad too, this is why we should get my extremely specific ideal imperialism'.

And speaking personally? I actually liked that we only turned up to Garlemald after it got wrecked. There's nothing that visiting a still-strong Garlemald would've brought to the table that the game is especially well-equipped to handle; going to the enemy city would open up great angles for subterfuge and stealth, but we actually know the game's not good at that because of Garlemald itself; the Thancred quest, In from the Cold, and the tailing quests were probably the worst-received parts of Endwalker as a whole (although personally, I thought In from the Cold was quite good). And the nature of zones means that there can't be a drastic change across a whole zone, so if we did get that hypothetical Stealth Mission Garlemald then either it'd remain a stealth zone in the entire game, or that the intact streets of Garlemald would need evergreen enemy spawns. And if you don't lean in that direction and just stuck to what the game's already known to be good at? Well, then a focus on a still-standing Garlemald is just Cold Stormblood. And we've already got both Stormblood and winter zones, combining them isn't new or interesting, I would just be bored; even Bozja was already repeating a lot of the notes of Stormblood, and even if I think Bozja did it better that 'I've heard this song before' factor was a negative.

But blowing the capital to smithereens before we get there, filling the streets not just with rubble, but with rogue magitek and tempered soldiers? Not only does that fix the zone continuity issue, it provides new and interesting areas we'd never seen before (I remember damn near the first thing about Endwalker I saw and actually liked was noticing that Garlemald seemed to be based on pictures of the Battle of Stalingrad). And that newness also spread to the Garleans themselves, because for once, we see them on the back foot. This provides a vulnerability we'd never seen, how they handle when they're not the ones with the gun to someone's head. And just as interesting as what changes in that scenario--them genuinely fearing the retribution they assume we're bringing--is what doesn't change, but comes in a whole new angle--their strong sense of national identity has gone from fueling a racially-supremacist imperialism to instead a death-grip on their independence far beyond what's reasonable or helpful.

I was in no way interested in going to Garlemald until I learned that Garlemald got blasted.

Garlemald's broader issue, like many empires introduced in the Final Fantasy franchise as a whole, was that it merely ended up being a front for something bigger. The instant that the latter part of Stormblood revealed that Varis was no more than a puppet dictator under Emet's thumb with no meaningful power of his own, Garlemald itself was devitalized of its story potential. What's the significance of going head to head against the Emperor in a climactic battle when we've already crushed the Ascians? He couldn't even be considered as a Mid-boss. Where is the mystique in exploring the modern city of Garlemald when Amaurot is even more modern in appearance?

There was no opportunity to make Garlemald more interesting without wrapping up the Amaurotines' involvement in the story, preferably for good.

And yeah, this is also genuinely a thing. Emet-Selch robbed the Garlean Empire of any agency, human depth or even stake in their own story, so any interest I may have once had in marching on their capital was completely sucked dry by that revelation in Stormblood's patches.

[kaynide]

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

I don’t think this is unreasonable at all. Just being part of the Empire isn’t entirely bad, and some provinces might be down for it.

Monty Python Sketch (what did Roman’s ever do for us)

[DPZ2]

First, I never said that I want them to have the same level of control as before, in fact I said that the provinces are free to have their condition for joining the Empire.

And, as I stated above the part you quoted, "Empires are built on the backs of conquered nations." You are describing, instead, a loosely based confederation of states that just happens to agree that their previous Masters should still be in charge.

A lot of non-Garlean conscripts died in wars of conquest during the Garlean Empire's reign. A lot of non-Garlean citizens suffered for decades after their territory was conquered. We know how the Empire treated non-Garlean citizens. I doubt that those now-freed citizens would agree to the yoke once more simply because you think the New-and-Improved Empire would be benevolent.

Second, why would you want things to happen off-screen? I certainly hate how ala mhigo development was off-screen, I don't want that to happen to Garlemald too.

You quoted part of a thought. My full thought was "I can see no 'logical story' coming out of such a situtation -- only doom, disaster and despair for Garlemald and its peoples.

It is no longer the story of the Warrior of Light at that point. It will be hidden off screen, as was Ala Mhigo for the most part."

[Kozh]

Again, it's not the same and you're making a false equivalency. Garlemald was destroying lives and cultures on a global scale for no reason. Before now, Eorzea was a backwater fighting regional conflicts between multiple people groups with swords and arrows for 1500 years. Garlemald has been bombing cities from the sky for 60 years to get revenge for something that happened 600 years ago and then expanded beyond that to destroy countries that had nothing to do with them at all.

How is that false equivalency when the core reason of both garlemald conquest and eorzea conquest are the same? Which is expanding their territory. One of the differences is that garlemald conquest was fuelled by survival (and revenge for corvos), while Eorzean city states conquest was fuelled by each thinking their deity is the “right one”, and perhaps for resources too. The Alliance is very recently formed because of Autumn War and later because of the Empire. As for why they didn’t go global scale, it’s not hard to imagine that they’re pretty equal in term of strength hence. Only garlean who was too weak and therefore being pushed back to northern ilsabard.
Do you truly believe that if it was one of the city states who was gifted the power of magitek (or other power equivalent in strength to it), they won’t use it to launch their conquest in global scale?
I very much doubt they use “swords and arrows” only. Even ignoring the use of magic, I’m sure Sil’dih will disagree with you. Also I’m not sure why “swords and arrows” supposed to make it better? War is war.

Going to need a source on this last bit because I don't remember that. In any case, the recent Saints' Wake event had a Gridanian Elezen married to a Moon Keeper Miqo'te. In a world where inter-racial marriages are frowned upon, let alone one between a Wildwood and a Moon Keeper, that's a big deal. But the likely case is that the writers don't care about that plot thread anymore and we won't see racial tensions as much going forward anyway.

It’s from sidequests. Just because they won’t touch it again, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

It would be extremely cheap to the majority of the playerbase who have been around since the very beginning, are deeply engaged with the story, and aren't edgy imperial fans to have Garlemald just say "oops, sorry", put another Galvus on the throne, and keep the empire around.

And do you not think it was extremely cheap that the main Empire, whom we have been fighting against since the beginning, was destroyed of-screen and without our action? Is it not cheap to solve the political problem of ffxiv mainly by having all the opponents died to chaotic forces such as Zenos and Fandaniel? How is the game going “oh look, now the baddies are all gone and their nation wiped. You’re now free to go on new adventures and not think too hard about those guys, congrats ” isn’t cheap? Frankly it’s the same with the Ascian too. This game tends to use the easy way and have our opponents killed instead of living alongside them and having to navigate the conflicts and problems that arise due to that.
I know I’m not the only who think that way, because even Reddit of all places, was baffled as to why the game decided to finish Garlemald that way (back when 5.4 was released).

The empire is gone. Provinces are in open rebellion and the military can't do anything about it. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 10th legions have surrendered in EW and the 10th was supposed to be the last hope for Garlemald so who knows what the state of the others is like. The threat of the military was the only thing that kept the whole engine running and now that's gone and the capital has been destroyed, it's only a matter of time before the rest collapses like dominoes... snip

Yes it does sound bleaks, hence why I was actually discussing garlemald’s rewrite rather than “write garlemald’s future with scraps given by the game”. But anyway, we still have other legions that the game could easily retconned into “well they’re struggling, but still there to protect the capital if needed”. Some people said that there’s no logical way to justify the Empire revival, but imo it’s not impossible. One reason I think that way is because of Final Days and blasphemies. Both happen to everyone, not only to Garlean. They could say that the provinces on Ilsabard was hit hard by blasphemies and so does the rebel army. Now free, those small nations lack military power to properly defend themselves in the case of conflicts. Can also justify it by making those small unnamed nations to be one of the earliest conquered nation of Garlemald, nations with weak military power and facing the same problem as garlemald, which was harsh environment. Therefore they’re also dependent to Garlemald’s economy and technology (magitek and ceruleum)

[Iscah]

One of the differences is that garlemald conquest was fuelled by survival (and revenge for corvos), while Eorzean city states conquest was fuelled by each thinking their deity is the “right one”, and perhaps for resources too.

The actions of the city-states have never been portrayed as a religious war, especially against each other. All of them believe in all of the Twelve; they just hold one in high regard as their own patron.

Even against the beast tribes with their different gods, it's not about "our gods are the right ones" but "their gods are living monsters and a threat to us".

And do you not think it was extremely cheap that the main Empire, whom we have been fighting against since the beginning, was destroyed off-screen and without our action?

Yes, it was cheap and awkwardly done, and seems to have been done that way because they didn't know what to do with Garlemald as a powerful empire so they imploded it.

So, having done that to remove it from play, why would the writers want to put it back as it was? What was the point of all the destruction?

If they wanted to go the path of a now-turned-benevolent empire, they could have done that far more simply by taking Varis in a different direction. There was a point where he hovered on the edge of being portrayed as sympathetic, between "Solus" bullying him around and his actions at the parley possibly being readable as a stealthy way of warning us about the Ascians meddling in his country and implicitly asking for our aid, unable to talk freely.

[MikkoAkure]

How is that false equivalency when the core reason of both garlemald conquest and eorzea conquest are the same? Which is expanding their territory. One of the differences is that garlemald conquest was fuelled by survival (and revenge for corvos), while Eorzean city states conquest was fuelled by each thinking their deity is the “right one”, and perhaps for resources too. The Alliance is very recently formed because of Autumn War and later because of the Empire. As for why they didn’t go global scale, it’s not hard to imagine that they’re pretty equal in term of strength hence. Only garlean who was too weak and therefore being pushed back to northern ilsabard.
Do you truly believe that if it was one of the city states who was gifted the power of magitek (or other power equivalent in strength to it), they won’t use it to launch their conquest in global scale?
I very much doubt they use “swords and arrows” only. Even ignoring the use of magic, I’m sure Sil’dih will disagree with you. Also I’m not sure why “swords and arrows” supposed to make it better? War is war.

The Autumn War was fought in the context of Ala Mhigo's trade power being marginalized by new trading routes before a single power-hungry king came to power. Ul'dah and Sil'dih fought in the context of a severe drought creating a potential life-or-death situation with Sil'dih monopolizing the water supply amidst a background of years of tension. Even the Dragonsong War has nothing at all to do with Halone. Limsa Lominsa isn't even religious.

But none of the city-states at all have had any ideas of global domination and there's nothing in the game to suggest it. The Sharlayans were uninterested in anything, the Ishgardians were too busy alternating between making love and war with Dravania, Limsa Lominsa was up until 5 years ago a loose amalgamation of pirates that had no greater national cause than "be a safe haven and resupply port" whose own people fought each other more than they did any foreign nation, Gridania cannot exist outside the Twelveswood, and then there's Ul'dah.

Ul'dah is the most like Garlemald in that it's a country in an inhospitable location whose predecessors had to fight off Hyur nomads and had to hire mercenaries to defend themselves. Yet the Ul'dahns never moved out of Thanalan and despite having the largest supply of ceruleum on the continent, they haven't industrialized into a magitek army to take over the world, that's bad for business. No one treats Ul'dah's destruction of Sil'dih as a good thing that should have happened in the story, but at least the leader of Ul'dah recognizes that and that on its own makes a small difference.

What sets the Garleans apart from Eorzea is the scale, spectacle, and speed at which they conquered 2 continents and some change, without having a legitimate reason to do, followed by the destruction of the cultures and the cruelty of their occupations. The Garleans came from nowhere with technology that hadn't existed for thousands of years, that completely removed the ability for anyone to be able to defend themselves from, using conscripts from the previous land they conquered.

What did Othard and Eorzea have anything at all to do with Garlean survival or revenge? If the Garleans stopped at Ilsabard, you may have had a leg to stand on but they kept going to destroy and conquer which invalidates any moral supremacy they could have had over Eorzea. The whole point of the original Eorzean Alliance was that the idea of one city-state going crazy and conquering was completely wild to them and had to be stopped. It didn't lead to them conquering Ala Mhigo together and then crossing the Ghimlyt Dark to take land from city-states in Ilsabard and create an empire.

It’s from sidequests. Just because they won’t touch it again, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Which sidequest?

And do you not think it was extremely cheap that the main Empire, whom we have been fighting against since the beginning, was destroyed of-screen and without our action?

Yoshi-P has said for a long time that Garlemald was too strong for the plot. It didn't matter as much when they were all the way over there, but when it comes to finalizing the whole game's story up to now it becomes tricky with how to deal with it, especially in an MMO where you need to revisit zones again over and over for years to come. The alternative would have been like where Ala Mhigo is now where they have an instance but no city to visit.

Looking back, it's not as much a surprise to anyone who has played FFVI that this is how it ended though. The Garleans are more influenced by the Gestahlian Empire than anything else, to the point where their magitek designs are ripped straight out of FFVI to the finest detail and pasted into FFXIV. With Zenos hanging around being crazy along with having powers he shouldn't have, it makes sense that they went with the same angle where the Garlean Empire like the Gestahlian Empire before them would meet their end due to one of their insane generals destroying everything. It may not be the glamorous end anyone wanted but in the end our army still marched right in, fought two legions, and took it over. It would have been weirder if the invading Eorzean force was somehow allowed to march right up with no airship attacks against a fully fit for battle Garlean army on their home turf and somehow won.

The Garleans having lost their empire by their own hand also makes it easier to close this chapter on the story since the Garleans have no one else really to blame but themselves and we don't end up having war restart all over again after them being upset about the first one and the plot can finally move on.

Can also justify it by making those small unnamed nations to be one of the earliest conquered nation of Garlemald, nations with weak military power and facing the same problem as garlemald, which was harsh environment. Therefore they’re also dependent to Garlemald’s economy and technology (magitek and ceruleum)

Garlemald doesn't have a monopoly on magitek. Someone mentioned that Landis has the Magitek Academy and we've seen Imperial Magitek facilities in Terncliff, Werlyt, and Ala Mhigo. Eorzea has also been making their own, independent of Garlemald. Ceruleum exists in Thanalan and in the New World so it's simple to suggest that they aren't the only places in the entire world with that resource either, especially since it's said in the EE that it's "abundant" in Ilsabard.

[Iscah]

Where is the mystique in exploring the modern city of Garlemald when Amaurot is even more modern in appearance?

Amaurot isn't more modern; it's 1920s skyscrapers but sort of in isolation, without any surrounding elements of that culture.

And I've said before, I think they really messed up by referencing "modern Earth tech" for Garlemald, especially those ugly boxy cars that look like they've made a 3D model of how a two-year-old draws a car. We've seen Garlean tech before that – the magitek armours and flying juggernauts with their whimsical winged bipedal designs and ornate details. Garlemald citizen tech should be based on those designs, not turning to a different source entirely.

I've just recently picked up Final Fantasy VI, where those magitek designs originate from, and while I haven't got too deep into it yet I would think they could draw on that setting as a basis for the accompanying tech level of the country. Narshe feels like it could a base design for a Garlean village, though I haven't seen much of the Empire yet besides their machines.

And if you don't lean in that direction [of stealth] and just stuck to what the game's already known to be good at? Well, then a focus on a still-standing Garlemald is just Cold Stormblood.

I don't think they did a good job of Stormblood anyway. Too many times we turned up in a place and the enemy had already retreated without a fight, again perhaps to avoid the "permanent Garlean enemies in a field zone" thing that they realised is a narrative awkwardness after ARR and Heavensward.

Uh yeah, it's not super religious war or something like that. But I mean it's still war to expand their territory etc. They're just unsuccessful of going global.

I should have phrased better in my previous post – I don't believe there has ever been any indication that the city-states are trying to expand territory against each other, except perhaps at Carteneau which is somehow considered unclaimed territory for anyone. None of them are trying to take over each other's lands and few are even making moves against their resident beast tribes, beyond trying to keep out direct invasions into their current territory.

[Cleretic]

And I've said before, I think they really messed up by referencing "modern Earth tech" for Garlemald, especially those ugly boxy cars that look like they've made a 3D model of how a two-year-old draws a car. We've seen Garlean tech before that – the magitek armours and flying juggernauts with their whimsical winged bipedal designs and ornate details. Garlemald citizen tech should be based on those designs, not turning to a different source entirely.

I actually didn't overly mind the cars, because they do look like kinda crappy early twentieth century cars--or, perhaps more pointedly, how anime tends to draw early 20th century cars. Those are some Fullmetal Alchemist or JoJo Part 2-style boltbuckets right there. It's not fancy or particularly interesting, but I feel like if they designed a fully detailed Garlean car then we'd want to see them use it, and they had no intention of it being more than a piece of scenery. One of those funny instances where they're sorta forced to underdesign a new setting element.

And... honestly, I don't think Stormblood was all it could've been, either--it's still pretty good at points (mostly in the back end), but it'd be the hardest one to try to 'fix', and ultimately I think Bozja hit its goals better. But like I said, I'm not really interested in 'Stormblood, Take Three'. I wanted something new from Garlemald, and that's what I got.

[Iscah]

I actually didn't overly mind the cars, because they do look like kinda crappy early twentieth century cars--or, perhaps more pointedly, how anime tends to draw early 20th century cars. Those are some Fullmetal Alchemist or JoJo Part 2-style boltbuckets right there.

I haven't watched JoJo so cant speak for that, but FmA car designs are much more vintage-looking. They're fairly uncommon in the setting anyway but I skimmed through the manga looking for images – the first few pages of chapter 63 is an easy scene to reference – it is quite a boxy shape (and I don't know cars enough to say if it's accurate to anything) but it has the details like old-fashioned headlights and fenders and just generally looks like a car rather than a child's drawing of a car.