Variant & Criterion Dungeons

[Ransu]

Personally, I'd rather see Criterion also have the scaling factor that Variant dungeons have. Even if it meant that certain party combinations were better than others - the fact that they still pigeonhole us into Tank/Healer/DPS/DPS when the Variant version does not - just seems like they can't think outside of the box.

The trinity is literally the core of MMO's like this. If you don't like that find a different game. The worst thing swtor ever did was remove roles from their flashpoints making them boring as hell. They gave you some room in variants which is why they called it that. Leave the harder content to what makes these kind of games tick.

[AmpelioB]

The trinity is literally the core of MMO's like this. If you don't like that find a different game. The worst thing swtor ever did was remove roles from their flashpoints making them boring as hell. They gave you some room in variants which is why they called it that. Leave the harder content to what makes these kind of games tick.

the "don't like it don't play" is literally the worst mentally anyone can have, we literally have content in this game that doesn't push the trinity and scaling point down (palace of the dead/HoH/Treasure hunt) so there is literally no point in being this rude.

[Midareyukki]

The trinity is literally the core of MMO's like this. If you don't like that find a different game. The worst thing swtor ever did was remove roles from their flashpoints making them boring as hell. They gave you some room in variants which is why they called it that. Leave the harder content to what makes these kind of games tick.

the "don't like it don't play" is literally the worst mentally anyone can have, we literally have content in this game that doesn't push the trinity and scaling point down (palace of the dead/HoH/Treasure hunt) so there is literally no point in being this rude.

I think the problem is conflating "core concept" with "strict concept". MMORPGs in general have a core concept usually stemming out of the trinity (dedicated healer, dedicated damage dealer, MAYBE someone to tank the damage). Meaning that it's their base system. Whether that MMO decides to branch off of it or not is entirely up to them. FF11 has dedicated tanks, for example, but those can change depending on their build. WoW is a similar system. GW2 has more than just "Oh you tank, deal damage or heal" and such, as in a party your utility is incredibly useful as well.

FF14's outlook on it is "strict concept". We have no utility because it's always perceived as "broken". Square hasn't exactly made a game where we can explore different avenues, so trying to translate that into this game just won't cut it. Hence why BLU's current design has to be a Limited Job. We really only work with a ludicrously strict system where people deal damage, heal and tank, that's it. These systems where we have buttons with different effects emulate the utility and such that other games provide, breaking the Trinity a little. Or at least giving it more space to breathe. It's limited, but it's something given the sort of MMO that was built.
The Trinity's just a design choice. Devs then expand or constrict it.

Ampelio's right. Content that circumvents the trinity a bit (DDs with their scaling and pomanders, Eureka and Bozja with Lost Actions, Treasure Hunt with its scaling) is rather popular.

Going for a "don't like it don't play it" argument over the concept of the MMO isn't exactly that great when the whole point of this concept is literally made to cater to that xD Plus, people can enjoy the trinity and still want something that breaks monotony, can't they? Does everything need to lie on extremes with this community? If someone says "we could do with more of X" it doesn't mean they inherently hate stuff that isn't X.

[Hanayumi]

Guessing there criterion versions dont have one or just no1s found it yet be theres apparently a secret in the Variant dungeon.

[hydralus]

Holy crap getting no-DPS healers is such a detriment. Never going to do a variant dungeon in a group again.

[Midareyukki]

Rewards aside (I wasn't expecting anything ground-breaking tbh), I really liked the Variant Dungeon a lot. It's like they took what was good about CLL, Dalriada and Delubrum Reginae and made something interesting. The bosses are long but aren't -too- long, the mechanics have a bit of variation to them between choices and just exploration-wise it's so well-made.

Of course, there are a few things I didn't really like.
- The middle boss needs a bit more to him if that's what we're meant to grind. Otherwise he gets repetitive and tedious fast.
- It's quite obvious which skills to use between roles. Bozja and Eureka had some really good skills to use. They could honestly have explored that avenue a bit more.
- LOTS OF MOBS. The mob pulls themselves aren't too bad, what I'm referring to is how there's nothing but mobs and a couple of bosses, at least in the Variant version, with one of them being
- In the end, this too will be repetitive. I understand Square likely isn't one for "true"* randomness, but this structure still lends well to some randomization. The "randomization" we have is reliant on our choices, but it becomes rather obvious after a while which path we should take.
I'm not saying to throw away the patterns, but do add one or two random elements to keep the variety going.

*"true" randomization is almost impossible in videogames. Stuff is calculated from a seed. So it too can be predictable, though it requires exceptional know-how or just plain hacking into the game to know.

[Deveryn]

Rewards aside (I wasn't expecting anything ground-breaking tbh), I really liked the Variant Dungeon a lot. It's like they took what was good about CLL, Dalriada and Delubrum Reginae and made something interesting. The bosses are long but aren't -too- long, the mechanics have a bit of variation to them between choices and just exploration-wise it's so well-made.

Of course, there are a few things I didn't really like.
- The middle boss needs a bit more to him if that's what we're meant to grind. Otherwise he gets repetitive and tedious fast.
- It's quite obvious which skills to use between roles. Bozja and Eureka had some really good skills to use. They could honestly have explored that avenue a bit more.
- LOTS OF MOBS. The mob pulls themselves aren't too bad, what I'm referring to is how there's nothing but mobs and a couple of bosses, at least in the Variant version, with one of them being
- In the end, this too will be repetitive. I understand Square likely isn't one for "true"* randomness, but this structure still lends well to some randomization. The "randomization" we have is reliant on our choices, but it becomes rather obvious after a while which path we should take.
I'm not saying to throw away the patterns, but do add one or two random elements to keep the variety going.

*"true" randomization is almost impossible in videogames. Stuff is calculated from a seed. So it too can be predictable, though it requires exceptional know-how or just plain hacking into the game to know.

Too many skills make it too complicated. You really don't need much more beyond what's presented. Remember variant is supposed to be soloable and people already have enough of a kit at 90.

One of the worst parts of bozja was actually when people didn't have what was needed. Odds are more in your favor for a smooth run, especially with an all DPS group. At least one person will probabl have raise and one should have heal.

The lack of mobs is actually a refreshing change. Everything doesn't have to be wall to wall and the criterion pulls (so far) are a nice throwback for me, with roamers and small packs to deal with. It's the right kind of spicy. I feel like I could tolerate doing this via PF and progging through to the savage mode.

Overall, it feels very chill, but still retaining a level of challenge.

[Midareyukki]

Too many skills make it too complicated. You really don't need much more beyond what's presented. Remember variant is supposed to be soloable and people already have enough of a kit at 90.

One of the worst parts of bozja was actually when people didn't have what was needed. Odds are more in your favor for a smooth run, especially with an all DPS group. At least one person will probabl have raise and one should have heal.

The lack of mobs is actually a refreshing change. Everything doesn't have to be wall to wall and the criterion pulls (so far) are a nice throwback for me, with roamers and small packs to deal with. It's the right kind of spicy. I feel like I could tolerate doing this via PF and progging through to the savage mode.

Overall, it feels very chill, but still retaining a level of challenge.

True. For the sake of keeping it simple and reduce clutter, I understand. It just feels like the options given were too "obvious"? Like, what do we give for more damage? A DoT. And not a damage boost. Not Chainspell which worked for some kits. They went for the bare essentials. But if in the end it was just sacrificing "fun and variety" for security, then I can respect that.

As for the mobs, it's just that I personally feel like it could do with one pack less x( It just feels a bit uneven with the bosses.

[Rufalus]

They kind of addressed my main complaint with the game, which was not understanding why dungeons should be the same thing every run. The variant dungeons do have some variations but are still quite limited in that you just pick an option and each one has static content within. I still think there should be some RNG in enemy patterns, not just the same formation of enemies waiting for you every time. Also not a big deal but it's weird behavior for them to just sit there waiting to engage me because Nanamo is still talking. The multiple difficulties of V&C is another positive, gives static groups something else to run together. Rewards still need work because it's mostly stuff you only need one time for your collection then you're done with the content.

[Rithy255]

I'm happy but also disappointed, the content ive played was great, I love dungeons with pathways, just keep in mind if you group up you might get a route that's undesirable, mind you ive only played the casual dugeons.

The good:
>No role requirements has a good side effect that you can't tank privilege through things, I actually kind of like how hard it hit on my first few runs when I messed up a mech, I generally took a heal/raise as PLD mostly but depending if you got a healer you may wanna free up space for that strong "dot", Generally take a Dot, heal or raise as tank, I love how you can switch classes mid dungeon as well.
>Bosses are actually very fun for a normal fight, I've always liked certain new EW dungeons that have heavy movement and punishing mechs, I'm glad they're willing to be less hand holdy, it's not perfect but I think it's pretty fun
>Replayable, I've had serval runs now and its way more replayable then any old dungeon, its not perfect but it's really good for what it is

The Bad
>Rewards, I'm sorry but the glam rewards I can't say I'm a fan of, mind you if they had some really nice looking sets maybe this would be a positive, I also think savage dungeons should reward something like 625 gear, I mean it's 6.25, at this point I don't think it's a bad idea (maybe it is?) to reward players who might wanna just do harder dungeons, as raids and getting a group that isn't PF can be a bit more annoying, I hope they actually want to push for more of a hardcore dungeon crowd as well... I'm pretty disappointed to say the least with the rewards, I feel like even if they just wanted it to be cosmetic rewards, a few other things they need more variety in rewards If the content is meant to be way harder then ext I really dont see why you can't get some high leveled gear (doesn't and shouldn't have to be bis or on par with savage).
>AOE (In normal) is a joke and a complete waste of time, let it hit harder if you're going to scale dps and healer hp higher it really doesn't matter if you got a tank or not (esp if you can bring var rampart), hopefully next dungeons allow you to pull more or mobs hit harder.

Overall I'm happy they're making some dungeons more fun from even a casual perspective, honestly I feel like having different routes and stuff just makes dungeons so much better, I hope they keep mech heavy combat and fast paced combat, a big problem with a lot of dungeons is they're not just "ez" but they're very boring and don't teach players to avoid mechs well, they should generally actually scale gear better in a lot of dungeons I find because you got such good gear when you normally replay them it becomes a joke compared to min item level where it might be at least a bit engaging to the average player, I just really hope we get some better glam rewards and possibly just better rewards for the savage version I would say a lot of players would be more compelled to play.