Proposal the embrace the green skin.

[Elizasylen]

What if we embraced the green dps instead?

Healing is always going to be either boring scheduled and predictable in a well coordinated static or wildly stressful and chaotic in something less organized like in PF

We have catered to Green DPS now for 10 years. Why not just embrace it at this point

We can strip healers of their GCD heals and replace them with a Warrior or Summoner complexity level damage kit. Keep the oGCDs around for group mits and heals (i.e. kind of like what Dancer has but more). Then Slap some healing esque stuff on their rotation (i.e. Paladin but raid wide)

People already avoid GCD heals like the plague. Let’s do something with them. Healers can reach damage parity with the tanks. Can still heal and mitigate with oGCD cooldowns. Would be required for light party healer stacks. And much more interactive to play.

For example Presence of Mind is an Inner Release and let’s you use Lily spells (that now do damage and heal the party for free) then let’s you use Misery as a finisher.

[Heilstos]

I think if this really happened I would stop playing healers especially in PF. I would be more happy if the damage is set so high as in this raid tier that you are forced to use GCD healing if people don't throw any medication. I sadly agree, like yoshida, that a healer's DPS shouldn't make him out. For me that is the plague of being a healer. And I think pure OGCD healing will cause problems for many inexperienced healers. GCD healing is there for emergencies. But I think I'm all alone with my opinion here in the forum. Luckily, Yoshida sees it that way and finally makes the constant more exciting for healers. SE is finally listening to the community so these healers aka play the WHM as RDM finally know that 1 and 2 aren't the only buttons. Even if the reaction in the PF shows that healers don't like constants where you sometimes need GCD healing.

I'd appreciate more experimental playstyles like the AST through SB had. Or the SAGE in the beginning, which hopefully in the next addon.

I apologize in advance for any healers who feel like they've been ripped off. Only I don't want to have DPS rotation on all healers. That would make me stop healing. I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those Claric stance not healers from Hevensward.I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those claric stance not healers from Hevensward who were overwhelmed to use claric stance properly.

[ASkellington]

I think if this really happened I would stop playing healers especially in PF. I would be more happy if the damage is set so high as in this raid tier that you are forced to use GCD healing if people don't throw any medication. I sadly agree, like yoshida, that a healer's DPS shouldn't make him out. For me that is the plague of being a healer. And I think pure OGCD healing will cause problems for many inexperienced healers. GCD healing is there for emergencies. But I think I'm all alone with my opinion here in the forum. Luckily, Yoshida sees it that way and finally makes the constant more exciting for healers. SE is finally listening to the community so these healers aka play the WHM as RDM finally know that 1 and 2 aren't the only buttons. Even if the reaction in the PF shows that healers don't like constants where you sometimes need GCD healing.

I'd appreciate more experimental playstyles like the AST through SB had. Or the SAGE in the beginning, which hopefully in the next addon.

I apologize in advance for any healers who feel like they've been ripped off. Only I don't want to have DPS rotation on all healers. That would make me stop healing. I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those Claric stance not healers from Hevensward.I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those claric stance not healers from Hevensward who were overwhelmed to use claric stance properly.

Damage is never going to be set high enough to where both healers need to burn through all their oGCDs and dip into GCDs when a party gets good.

That isn't to say SE doesn't need to up the damage, because they do, however we still have too many redundant CDs that can be removed and replace with something either damage or support. (more mitigation options for example so it isn't so heavily reliant on dps and tanks who don't use theirs)

Also, no. Healers need more dps options. They don't need a rotation but they do need to add one or two more buttons for healers to press.

Because:

1. Being the only role in the game that gets 2 main dps buttons from lv4-90 is dumb design.
2. Healers still need to get through MSQ and it is NOT fair for me to have to level a second job for me to not be bored on my main
3. We are ALWAYS going to have down time (time spent not healing) and 2 buttons to fill that down time is boring

[ty_taurus]

I think if this really happened I would stop playing healers especially in PF. I would be more happy if the damage is set so high as in this raid tier that you are forced to use GCD healing if people don't throw any medication. I sadly agree, like yoshida, that a healer's DPS shouldn't make him out. For me that is the plague of being a healer. And I think pure OGCD healing will cause problems for many inexperienced healers. GCD healing is there for emergencies. But I think I'm all alone with my opinion here in the forum. Luckily, Yoshida sees it that way and finally makes the constant more exciting for healers. SE is finally listening to the community so these healers aka play the WHM as RDM finally know that 1 and 2 aren't the only buttons. Even if the reaction in the PF shows that healers don't like constants where you sometimes need GCD healing.

I'd appreciate more experimental playstyles like the AST through SB had. Or the SAGE in the beginning, which hopefully in the next addon.

I apologize in advance for any healers who feel like they've been ripped off. Only I don't want to have DPS rotation on all healers. That would make me stop healing. I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those Claric stance not healers from Hevensward.I hope there will be some healers who understand my fear who are still post traumatic. Thank those claric stance not healers from Hevensward who were overwhelmed to use claric stance properly.

I mean I've talked at length about ways to create passive healers that can significantly decrease the amount of time they spend dealing direct DPS by having them set up their support and recovery tools and generate passive damage that they can pass onto other players to dish out. That would go a long way in providing something more support oriented in playstyle while still working within the confines of this game's combat system.

The reality though is there's no way to eliminate DPS from healer responsibilities. It would require completely redoing the game's combat system from the ground up, and that's just not a realistic solution.

[Sebazy]

The reality though is there's no way to eliminate DPS from healer responsibilities. It would require completely redoing the game's combat system from the ground up, and that's just not a realistic solution.

I think they can diminish the reliance on healer DPS but it'll require quite a significant rethink of Savage encounter design IMO.

If you look back to ARR/HW encounters, even fights as notorious as A3S didn't actually have that rough an enrage timer. Instead they frequently had very specific burst windows that required the group to save cooldowns to push key mechanics or adds. A3S' Hand of Pain and Liquid Limb are great examples of this but an even more extreme example would be skipping phases in Cruise Chaser or even entirely holding DPS to push the phase at a good time in SCOB Turn 7.

Moving back to these kind of approach for DPS checks would still mean that healers would likely be leaned on for their damage during these windows, but would be under less pressure outside of that.

The long and short of it is that IMHO SE need to get out of this weird situation of trying to ensure high end content (and jobs in general TBH) is logs friendly. I understand the appeal, but it's flat out strange given the ToS situation and the esports approach just isn't fun for the mainstream player.

[Elizasylen]

I think they can diminish the reliance on healer DPS but it'll require quite a significant rethink of Savage encounter design IMO.

Remember when they used to say they don't balance around Healers needing to DPS? Can you imagine trying to clear P8S with your healers just healing?

[ty_taurus]

I think they can diminish the reliance on healer DPS but it'll require quite a significant rethink of Savage encounter design IMO.

If you look back to ARR/HW encounters, even fights as notorious as A3S didn't actually have that rough an enrage timer. Instead they frequently had very specific burst windows that required the group to save cooldowns to push key mechanics or adds. A3S' Hand of Pain and Liquid Limb are great examples of this but an even more extreme example would be skipping phases in Cruise Chaser or even entirely holding DPS to push the phase at a good time in SCOB Turn 7.

Moving back to these kind of approach for DPS checks would still mean that healers would likely be leaned on for their damage during these windows, but would be under less pressure outside of that.

The long and short of it is that IMHO SE need to get out of this weird situation of trying to ensure high end content (and jobs in general TBH) is logs friendly. I understand the appeal, but it's flat out strange given the ToS situation and the esports approach just isn't fun for the mainstream player.

If not diminish, then play around it. The main factor that ultimately goes into your GCD usage is what tool ultimately yields the greatest DPS gain per cast. When you cast Dia, you're doing so because you know you're getting more bang for your buck in contrast to Glare. When you choose Regen, theoretically, the 1 HoT cast is going to offset the potential 2 or more Cure II casts you might otherwise need to keep the tank alive, as the tank dying is going to lead to a significantly larger DPS loss than the opportunity cost of that 1 Glare. Afflatus Solace/Rapture on the other hand, are able to offset the loss of glare through the Blood Lily, allowing you to choose healing over DPS because the net gain is the same (excluding downtime windows).

So what happens when we take advantage of this logic and allow other types of tools to generate DPS in some fashion equal to or greater than your Glare or Glare equivalent? What that tool is matters a lot, because healing, for example, is still only needed in rare occurrences. If you attach it to buffs, you could end up with a much stronger healer who not only DPSes, but also is keeping an attack buff on the party, or even a defensive buff, and will that make the healer fun to play if you're just spamming 1 buff on the target?

That's why the logic I've used in my own attempts at the concept are stamping limited but frequent buffs to be activated in the future rather than as you cast the spell. You're setting up for party buff windows rather than directly buffing, and all the while generating Malefic potency passive damage that you then can give to other players to activate for you.

In 60 seconds, you have 24 GCD casts to work with, and the AST concept I worked on would make it so that a minimum of 13 of those casts would go toward support while still maintaining DPS output, not including additional tools like activating those buffs, or GCD healing that could be needed. The other 11 are split between Malefic and any additional GCD tools you might need, such as Gravity which doubles as a mitigation button in the concept, GCD healing, or activating your set buff effects.

It's not the only way we can approach this concept, but I genuinely believe it's a way we can create something that at least better satisfies healers that want to be more party focused with their spells.

[Aravell]

I've been lurking and reading the healer discourse for some time now and I'm wondering if this proposal can satisfy both sides:

1) Return cleric stance and complexity to the damage side of the healer kit.
2) Cut the maximum potential healer damage output to half of a tank's.
3) Design fights so that healer damage helps out in a weaker party, but is ultimately irrelevant to beating the enrage.

Personally, I think this would allow for skill expression from the veterans while allowing the healers who dislike doing damage to also not be harassed since doing damage on a healer would then be irrelevant but fun.

Thoughts?

[ty_taurus]

I've been lurking and reading the healer discourse for some time now and I'm wondering if this proposal can satisfy both sides:

1) Return cleric stance and complexity to the damage side of the healer kit.
2) Cut the maximum potential healer damage output to half of a tank's.
3) Design fights so that healer damage helps out in a weaker party, but is ultimately irrelevant to beating the enrage.

Personally, I think this would allow for skill expression from the veterans while allowing the healers who dislike doing damage to also not be harassed since doing damage on a healer would then be irrelevant but fun.

Thoughts?

These changes would literally do the opposite of what your goal is. Old cleric stance does not add complexity. It doesn't change Glare spam. All it does is return Healer DPS to an immensely punishing state that now heavily gatekeeps scared or inexperienced healers who don't feel comfortable taking the ultimatum. Cutting total damage output does not allow for more skill expression, it decreases it as it means you working harder has diminished returns. Even if healer DPS is lower, it doesn't change the fact that your DPS is incredibly important in increasing the rest of the party's margin for error. Fights could be designed without demanding that DPS contribution to meet enrage at minimum ilvl, but it would possibly make healer DPS even more important because now you can skip a large segment of the end of a fight with good healers.

The true problem is thus: Healer DPS contributions are baked into the game's core design, yet the designers have designed the healers in ignorance to this fact. If we simple rework how each healer is designed to compliment this, we can not only have more fun and engaging healers that directly engage with DPS, but we can also create healers who are able to work around their DPS requirements by generating DPS as a consequence to other actions, like I was mentioning above. There are a lot of ways we can do this in practice, it just requires a bit of creativity.

[Aravell]

I did say to return complexity to the damage kit in addition to cleric stance, if dps isn't necessary to beat fights, it's not really gatekeeping, it's skill expression for the veterans. Cutting the total output is so that damage from the healer is less relevant and they won't be blamed for wiping to enrage, this makes healing more accessible at the low end. As for damage being important, of course it is, but these changes would make it less likely that a healer would be harassed for not doing any damage.

With the current design, healer dps is just 2 buttons, you have to press them if you want to be any good at healers, but if they gate it behind cleric stance and vastly cut the output, it wouldn't be as punishing to the rest of the party if a healer is just starting out and decides not to press their damage buttons.