The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[ForsakenRoe]

Accurate.

Fair enough. I think they intend KB Immunities to be used on those "intended" ones, though. Generally. Ultimates are kind of weird in that they are their own animal, but not something we can base the rest of the game (including Job mechs) around, really.

We can definitely salvage parts that are useful and can be made to fit with the 'rest of the game' though. There's a fair few things we see that some of the ultimate raiders will make comparisons to. For example, in the latest EX there's a bit where 2 people have to take tethers, and keep swapping who's taking them before the stacks they give hit 5. At the same time, 'limit cut' numbers are above people's heads, saying who's gonna get cleaved. As soon as I saw it, I said 'ah wormhole' and we tried to solve it in the same way, ie 5/6 takes the tethers first, so there's time for the debuff to fall off before their cleave. It's actually 7/8 who start with the tether here, but the point remains the same: I associated it with an ultimate mechanic, and it turned out to be very similar solution. They love to do this with other mechanics from savage too. EG: the patch after Titan and his big halfroom punches, we got Engels in the 24man and his big halfroom punches.

People say 'dynamo/chariot' for in/outs because of UCOB, people say 'rot' for literally any mechanic where a debuff is passed via contact (even if the debuff doesn't work like rot, 'it times out you die' is rot everything else isn't), people say 'limit cut' every time a 1-8 number appears above their head

And for the UWU KB, negation via shield was definitely the intended solution. At the time of release, BRD and MCH did not have Arm's Length in their kit. Nor did tanks, PLD had Tempered Will, WAR had Holmgang and IR (if it lined up), and DRK had to try and time it right with Plunge. And at the time, Plunge's animation-vs-effect difference was awful. Like, Benediction level of delay. Still remember having to use Cover as PLD to allow both myself and the BRD to avoid getting kb'd by Vacuum Wave in Exdeath (doorboss ver), had a macro for it and everything.

Reminiscing aside, yeh, we could definitely have mechanics which say 'hey have a shield on for this'. As a very quick example, let's take an example boss, who has a raidwide called, idk Blast Wave. Instead of casting it, and it does damage once, we could have this raidwide do TWO instances of damage. One with a static value of say, 200 damage, and one that is scaled to however much for the raid's difficulty. This '200 damage' raidwide could be flagged as 'unique' damage typing, or even better, introduce a new 'yellow shield' icon to say 'hey shield against this one to negate something'. Since that 200 damage is calculated 'first', the shields you apply would protect against it before the 'real damage', and it's such a low amount of damage, literally any shielding at all will protect you against it. Debuffs would be even easier. Have a raidwide that applies a debuff, with a description saying 'Does X effect. Fully negating the damage of the attack that applied this debuff will prevent it's application.'

[Renathras]

We can definitely salvage parts that are useful and can be made to fit with the 'rest of the game' though. There's a fair few things we see that some of the ultimate raiders will make comparisons to. For example, in the latest EX there's a bit where 2 people have to take tethers, and keep swapping who's taking them before the stacks they give hit 5. At the same time, 'limit cut' numbers are above people's heads, saying who's gonna get cleaved. As soon as I saw it, I said 'ah wormhole' and we tried to solve it in the same way, ie 5/6 takes the tethers first, so there's time for the debuff to fall off before their cleave. It's actually 7/8 who start with the tether here, but the point remains the same: I associated it with an ultimate mechanic, and it turned out to be very similar solution. They love to do this with other mechanics from savage too. EG: the patch after Titan and his big halfroom punches, we got Engels in the 24man and his big halfroom punches.

Right, but this is exactly why this doesn't work: That mechanic has been unclearable in PF so far. Either people do enough damage to clear the boss before it starts (which is possible) or it wipes parties. Most of us have no idea what "Wormhole" is. I saw it come up in a Reddit discussion where people were talking about how hard the mechanic was and I pointed out it's the most difficult version of Limit Cut I've ever seen, and someone said "It's easy, it's just like Wormhole", and everyone else in the thread was like "wtf is 'wormhole'? o.O"

Mechanics that aren't obvious aren't obvious.

As a healer, I figured out a while back no damage negates knockbacks, but that's because I've been healing since 2.3 and noticed it in my Praetorium runs (Ultima Weapon) where sometimes I'd get punted and other times I did not, and I eventually figured out that was what was going on. Had I been a Tank or DPS, I don't think I ever would have realized that was going on.

I've literally never heard anyone say "dynamo/chariot". People say "in/out" or "ring/point blank". Rarely (Hunt community), you'll hear "Bog/Flush" because of ShB's Mudman A Rank, but usually people only say it related to that fight. I've never heard "dynamo/chariot" before ever. I think you're overestimating how universal things within your subgroup of the community are to the community at large. I've also never heard "rot". The term is "tethers". Most people also say "cleaves" not "Limit Cut". Raiders say "Limit Cut". Everyone else calls them "cleaves".

UWU or original? I'm trying to remember when UWU came out, but everyone's had a KB since they implemented Role Actions in place of Cross-Class, right? I never remember when that was, but I think it was when SB/4.0 came out. Though I guess maybe it was just Melee at the time...? But either way, that was kind of my point: The Devs demand more from Ultimate raiders, who have to know a lot of specifics and special nuance. For example, people at one time knew that Fleche used Piercing damage type.

Though I do agree there could be a "shield this" indicator. I mean, we have all kinds now, from stack to spread to lightning rod to prey and on and on. They could have some kind of "this needs to be shielded" indicator just the same.

I'm more saying I highly doubt they'll do it. Could be wrong, but seems like it.

What they'd do instead of weird debuffs, though, would probably just be make attacks that one-shot unshielded people. But then we still run into the mitigation vs shielding thing. They also prefer people being able to avoid stuff like that unless it's a healing check (e.g. the bleed in ZodEx), but in those cases, they're designed to be healing checks (spamming heals/oGCDs after the damage), not pre-sheidling checks that are just a "can you press button <AOE shield> before a mechanic or fail?"

[ForsakenRoe]

Though I do agree there could be a "shield this" indicator. I mean, we have all kinds now, from stack to spread to lightning rod to prey and on and on. They could have some kind of "this needs to be shielded" indicator just the same.

bumping old thread yeh yeh, just rereading and had the idea, since we have 'flashing cast bar = interrupt this', we could introduce a new castbar, either of a different color (eg green by default to tell you it's a healer thing), or a shield icon over it to say 'this needs shields to negate something about it, be that a knockback, a debuff, etc'

I prefer the green one, I'm not good at drawing shields. Also, of course, the color of the 'green, 'shield this' bar' would not need to be green, it'd be the default but it could be changed in the options menu to any color the user prefers (for colorblindness accessibility)