The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

Gonna clip this here and post these first and keep reading. Good discussion. (I still do think a healer should be left alone, but I like hammering out more specifically WHY some things are felt boring and, more specifically, what WOULD break that up vs what would NOT...and it's also interesting seeing that you guys are also not of the exact same mind on it, with some finding oGCDs interesting vs some not, and some noting it depends on the type and frequency and how they fit into the overall kit.)

That's a fair question.

So would it be fair to say it as...hm...god this is going to be a horrible comparison but...

Suppose you're walking at a slow pace in a straight line. Each footstep is Glare. Assize is like doing a studder step every 40 seconds. But if you're playing RDM, Jolt is taking a step, Fire is taking a step right, Stone is taking a step left, Aero is taking a jump left, Thunder is taking a jump right, and your melee combo is like breaking into a sprint.

In other words, Assize doesn't really break up what you're doing, since its CD is long enough you aren't using it super frequently, and so it doesn't really break up the monotony of taking one slow step after another slow step. Contrasted to RDM which is weaving and dodging and jumping and sprinting.

...maybe that's a bad way to explain it, but that kind of in the right ballpark?

[NOTE: In my reply to Askellington, I thought maybe of a metronome. Maybe that's the better way to explain it?]

Quick question:

If the icons for your DoTs/HoTs (without needing plugins) tracked the timer of their respective debuffs on your current target (last living target if none selected), would DoTs still annoy you, or would they just feel more like... soft-CDs?

They would still annoy me, but they would annoy me A LOT LESS. I still think DoTs without major interactions with the rest of one's kit are lazy and boring design. But I would be less antagonistic to them if that were so, I think. It would be less frustrating AND annoying and merely just annoying.

I think it honestly does have a lot to do with the icon/visual of it. As I've said, I don't mind NIN's damage upkeep buff (shows up as the fanblade/kunai fan ticking down and is apparent at a quick glance roughly how much is left by how much is lit up, and exactly how much is left by the big timer number) while I dislike WAR's (and DRG's) because it's a little buff icon with an even littlier number (I like DRG's the least because, in gameplay terms, it's also very [i]rigid[/] - WAR and NIN can stack theirs twice, which is both more flexible and, if under 30 seconds you use it a second time/early, it's not actually a DPS loss outside of buff windows as you simply have longer before needing to refresh it). In terms of player feedback, the interface doesn't give me the information I need to maintain it in a really usable way given the way I process data.

So it's part the visual and part the inflexibility - Dia should be used once every 30 seconds, no more, no less, so it's not as flexible as Storm's Eye or Armor Crush, which are both more flexible AND more forgiving, somehow making a lower and higher skill ceiling at the same time.

So a much more usable/visually informative interface showing it would probably be a lot nicer, yes. Hell, I'd settle for my DoT icon being 2x sized under the boss bar where I MIGHT see when it falls off out of the corner of my eye (a big thing disappearing might stand out vs something the same size as everything else disappearing).

I still would prefer buttons that just do direct damage, though, but if my DoTs were better visually communicated to me as a player, I would probably dislike them less. I still think it'd be nice if at least one healer didn't have them. Pre-6.0, one reason I liked RDM of the casters was that it was the one that didn't have a DoT while the other two did. I thought ShB Casters had a nice diversity of playstyles and none of the three played the same, and I think that's something every role should shoot for.

Assize, Macrocosmos and Earthly Star are not dps buttons. They heal and do damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but optimal WHM play is to use Assize on CD for damage, right? "If it lines up with healing, that's just a happy coincidence" or something like that. Right? That is, it's used in high end play as a damage spell, not for the heal. If you can get useful healing by delaying it slightly, that's a gain, but only if it doesn't cost you an Assize use at the end of the fight (e.g. you can't delay more than a cumulative 40 seconds across an entire fight or it's a DPS loss). Do I not understand that correctly?

You may be right about Macrocosmos and Earthly Star (and Pneuma), as those are used for the healing. At least Pneuma is (it's damage neutral to Dosis, so there's no reason to use it NOT for the healing other than just a different button/visual/boredom)

So, only things that interrupt GCD spam count as buttons? Basically, Glare is being used as a metronome, and Assize doesn't interrupt the metronome, it just slides in during the swing and doesn't change the period in any way? Something like that?

How is Continuation different? It doesn't interrupt Gnashing Fang. Or is it more because Gnashing Fang itself is a separate button from 1-2-3? That is, pressing Continuation isn't the fun part, pressing Gnashing Fang instead of Keen/Brutal/Solid is the fun part?

Not disagreeing that those don't exactly feel like offensive "rotational kit" or the like, but...

One thing I've wondered is if giving Assize a 2 charge system would help. Granted, some people would use that as an optimization excuse to put it into buff windows, but I'm more thinking it then gives you the flexibility to put off using it for 10-20 seconds (39, actually) so you could intelligently hold it short periods to maximize its use (not overhealing but getting useful healing) while still not losing a cast over a fight as long as you prevent overcapping. Similarly to gap closers being used for damage, but because of having 2/3 charges, one charge can always be held for disengage/reengage uptime, which feels good to players. Choice often feels like a good thing. If it's not optimal but is NEARLY optimal (that is, not a big loss), choice can still feel good. "use on CD" is often not really fun because it's not really a choice. You're either doing it right or you're doing it wrong.

Phlegma breaks my Dosis spams however super brief that moment is, Assize do not stop me from Glare spams. ... Which is a gross simplification from my end, but everybody else already added the relevant points.

Basically, breaking up the metronome? Yeah, makes sense.

Short answer would be: yes.

Huh. That's so weird to me. This would mean, for example, say WHM had Continuation (of some kind) every 3 Glare GCDs as a weave as well as Bow Shock and Blasting Zone (basically just two more oGCDs, one on a 30 sec and one a 60 sec timer), such that game play was 245-1-1-13-1-1-135-1-1-13-1-1-13-25-1-1-13-1-1-135-1-1-13-1-1-13-245repeat
(Basically, like PLD's 1-2-3 generating a HS cast, just here as oGCDs)

...that that wouldn't be more fun than 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.

I guess if it's not, it's not - I fully accept what people find fun is a lot like asking what someone's favorite ice cream flavor is, and there's not a "wrong" answer to what you find fun (as long as it's not illegal, I guess, lol), it just might be different than someone else's favorite flavor/fun - but I can't mentally see how those two would feel like identical gameplay to someone. I guess if they do to you, they do. I'm just confused as to the why.

OGCD elements can supplement GCD rotations to some level. Look at BRD, a DPS with a GCD rotation that's really not much more deep than the healers even. You've got:

Found this post pretty interesting all around.

So to you, oGCDs...can feel interesting (and even overwhelm people) if they have short-ish CDs, variable timers (the ones that can refresh faster; MCH also does this with Hypercharge/Heated Shot), and shifting around through its oGCD kit depending on what part of the rotation it's on?

Also interesting on AST. I didn't really mess with it much until ShB other than unlocking it and leveling it a bit in HW and SB (I think I had it to level 50 or whenever you get all the cards before ShB, anyway; definitely remember the old cards and having to rebuild my hotbars after 5.0). I guess I always thought it had a second DoT. Didn't realize it was only EVER Malific/Combust. o.O