The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Shurrikhan]

That's fair, and moving forward, I wouldn't want to just return to that format either. I've spent a lot of time trying to crack the code to the perfect card system because it's just an almost impossible concept to do well in this game's format. Trying to create 6 cards that are both randomized, feature different effects that aren't a burden on the player to remember, and are also somehow perfectly balanced is just a nightmare. I have examples of concepts that I think do well enough, but each features its own flaws.

Same.

Right now, probably the best I've got is simply to either...

• Return to a revitalized version of the Stormblood system (balancing both the Royal Roads effects and the Cards themselves, through uncapping the number of Card buffs active on a target, unnerfing Empower, splitting the power of Expand across recipient count, functional buffs to Bole, tuning buffs to Arrow and Spear, and replacements for Spire and Ewer),
  or
  
• Have every Card have a unique effect (that may synergize with others to create a degree of greater-than-sum value), with no Royal Road necessary.

In both cases, though, it seems like it might be a good idea to both have uncapped holding potential (such as per a no-CD Spread) and perhaps to split the potential outcomes (e.g., into a Northern and Southern deck, each of 3 choices).

Personally, I kind of like the Seal system, in that, per 90- or 120-second period, it gives us further reason to leverage otherwise less obviously useful Cards. It just needs a more decent pay-out, ideally capable of more than just raw damage.

[ty_taurus]

Same.

Right now, probably the best I've got is simply to either...

• Return to a revitalized version of the Stormblood system (balancing both the Royal Roads effects and the Cards themselves, through uncapping the number of Card buffs active on a target, unnerfing Empower, splitting the power of Expand across recipient count, functional buffs to Bole, tuning buffs to Arrow and Spear, and replacements for Spire and Ewer),
  or
  
• Have every Card have a unique effect (that may synergize with others to create a degree of greater-than-sum value), with no Royal Road necessary.

In both cases, though, it seems like it might be a good idea to both have uncapped holding potential (such as per a no-CD Spread) and perhaps to split the potential outcomes (e.g., into a Northern and Southern deck, each of 3 choices).

Personally, I kind of like the Seal system, in that, per 90- or 120-second period, it gives us further reason to leverage otherwise less obviously useful Cards. It just needs a more decent pay-out, ideally capable of more than just raw damage.

The Northern/Southern aspect is something I've thought of before as well (though not with the same name choice. Yours is cooler)

My mind currently is dancing around this area...

- We have 2 "Draw" actions with separate cooldowns. Northern Draw and Southern Draw with using your naming scheme. Northern draws offensive cards and Southern draws defensive cards (or vice versa if I'm off base with the lore). Once you draw a card, that card is 'inactive' until you reshuffle the deck, meaning you can't draw it again.
- We have 3 "Play" actions with separate cooldowns. Solar Play, Lunar Play, and Celestial Play based on the signs. You play all cards to yourself and they do nothing initially when played. You can have up to 3 cards on yourself at a time and this is shown in your gauge UI. When drawing a card, it goes to the associated sign button.
- Celestial Opposition is changed to an action that applies your 3 stored cards to the party. Functionally, one way you might be able to create the concept of distributing these buffs based on recipient count is to have CO in this case apply 8 stacks of each buff divided equally among yourself and all party members in range. So in a light party, everyone would have 2 stacks of Balance.
- Reshuffle would have something like a 60 second cooldown with charges and replenishes your card supply and is essential to keep the card system going.
- After you use a card, a major arcana replaces it in the same associated "Play" action to be used. Which major arcana you get is based on the card you played. I'd like to actually dig into the lore more and have essentially....

Balance summons the Lord of Staves
Bole summons the Lord of Rings (that is a card in the AST's lore)
Arrow summons the Lady of Swords
Ewer summons the Lady of Cups
Spear summons the Knave of Irons
Spire summons the Knave of Crowns

Those are the suits in the AST's deck. That is a pretty complex list though, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be. But one idea is having both Lords be quite similar. Like Lord of Staves is AoE damage as it is currently and also decreases enemy magic damage dealt by 5% while Lord of Rings is the same but with physical damage. And so on so it's still quite easy to follow.

[glamazon]

Same.

Right now, probably the best I've got is simply to either...

• Return to a revitalized version of the Stormblood system (balancing both the Royal Roads effects and the Cards themselves, through uncapping the number of Card buffs active on a target, unnerfing Empower, splitting the power of Expand across recipient count, functional buffs to Bole, tuning buffs to Arrow and Spear, and replacements for Spire and Ewer),
  or
  
• Have every Card have a unique effect (that may synergize with others to create a degree of greater-than-sum value), with no Royal Road necessary.

In both cases, though, it seems like it might be a good idea to both have uncapped holding potential (such as per a no-CD Spread) and perhaps to split the potential outcomes (e.g., into a Northern and Southern deck, each of 3 choices).

Personally, I kind of like the Seal system, in that, per 90- or 120-second period, it gives us further reason to leverage otherwise less obviously useful Cards. It just needs a more decent pay-out, ideally capable of more than just raw damage.

I don't get why people don't like his ideas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNJGY9B7VW4&t=139s it seems he has a well thought out plan to make ast work

[Shurrikhan]

Gonna clip this here and post these first and keep reading. Good discussion. (I still do think a healer should be left alone, but I like hammering out more specifically WHY some things are felt boring and, more specifically, what WOULD break that up vs what would NOT...and it's also interesting seeing that you guys are also not of the exact same mind on it, with some finding oGCDs interesting vs some not, and some noting it depends on the type and frequency and how they fit into the overall kit.)

Yeah, this is seeming a lot more productive. Taking a bend towards the concrete definitely has seemed helpful.

A couple notes, from snippets of yours above.

In my reply to Askellington, I thought maybe of a metronome. Maybe that's the better way to explain it?

I... think that's a decent analogy, yeah. To me it's the difference between [A] and [B] vs. the difference between [A] and just [A+], but that's not a particularly precise analogy either, so... /shrug.

One thing I've wondered is if giving Assize a 2 charge system would help.

A quick rule of thumb, to me, is that charges only at best free up whatever number of casts per cycle necessarily cannot be buffed by the raid cycle anyways, because, as you said, "people would... put it into buff windows." For a 40s CD like Assize, a second charge offers 40s of freedom.

However, that freedom will also detract from rewards for skillful variance (e.g., for specifically wasting uptime on Assize in order to, to greater net effect, avoid GCD healing), so there's a balance even there. Because this isn't the only way to fill a function (healing), compared to a second charge on a sole gap-closer, a second charge here grants far less to accessibility compared to what it takes from skill ceiling.

As such, I'd really, really like to see oGCD healing tuned down first (which doesn't even necessarily make healing any harder so much as just reduce Glare casts over time --which can be compensated for anyways with bonus potency on offensive casts-- and make MP a little bit less of just a rez meter) such that holding Assize would be rewarded, more so than to simply embrace that "there's no point in holding CDs anyways" failing of context by jumping straight to a second charge and 1 in 3 Assize casts being freely timeable.

If there's something that fails just because of context and a fix for that context would help other areas too and isn't that far a reach, I feel like we should deal with the failing in context first and then see what feels best for each individual skill.

I don't get why people don't like his [Sariex's] ideas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNJGY9B7VW4&t=139s it seems he has a well thought out plan to make ast work

Not sure why this was given in response to my defense of the Seal system, but... my concerns (8 or 9 of them, iirc) were already listed out right at the top of the comments page.

[glamazon]

Oops sorry I quoted the wrong post :-(

[ty_taurus]

One thing I've wondered is if giving Assize a 2 charge system would help.

I think a better solution for Assize is removing the heal from the initial use. Assize is just damage at first, but they while it's on cooldown, you can reactivate it to perform the heal. This acknowledges how players use it on cooldown while the heal now has more room to be used as needed if needed without creating friction between the heal and the DPS.

A quick rule of thumb, to me, is that charges only at best free up whatever number of casts per cycle necessarily cannot be buffed by the raid cycle anyways, because, as you said, "people would... put it into buff windows." For a 40s CD like Assize, a second charge offers 40s of freedom.

However, that freedom will also detract from rewards for skillful variance (e.g., for specifically wasting uptime on Assize in order to, to greater net effect, avoid GCD healing), so there's a balance even there. Because this isn't the only way to fill a function (healing), compared to a second charge on a sole gap-closer, a second charge here grants far less to accessibility compared to what it takes from skill ceiling.

As such, I'd really, really like to see oGCD healing tuned down first (which doesn't even necessarily make healing any harder so much as just reduce Glare casts over time --which can be compensated for anyways with bonus potency on offensive casts-- and make MP a little bit less of just a rez meter) such that holding Assize would be rewarded, more so than to simply embrace that "there's no point in holding CDs anyways" failing of context by jumping straight to a second charge and 1 in 3 Assize casts being freely timeable.

If there's something that fails just because of context and a fix for that context would help other areas too and isn't that far a reach, I feel like we should deal with the failing in context first and then see what feels best for each individual skill.

I also agree. I think the relationship healers have between healing and damage is not a bad one, but just having a wealth of OGCD heals has not boded well for the experience of healing. While I do want wider DPS libraries, I like feeling like there's a decision I must make between my attacks and my heals. I liked playing as a SCH in ARR, HW, and SB, and feeling like Adlo and Succor were a regular part of my gameplay, not just a last ditch effort for survival. It's true, though, that there could've been a lot more interactivity between my actions that SCH could've received as time went on.

This is why I think making healer optimization about managing resources that allow your GCD heals to refund lost damage can be a part of the logic that goes into healer gameplay loops that can feel more rewarding. Your attacks aren't just about attacking--they're also about supplying yourself with the tools you need to keep your teammates alive without losing momentum.