The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

Honestly, at this point, let's just do it. We go through with the philosophy that WHM remains largely unchanged, and the other three healers are all reworked to have more engaging rotations and a more balanced disparity between offensive, recovery, and supportive actions. Meanwhile, here's my proposition for WHM:

LV 92: Glare IV - Potency is 330
LV 92: Enhanced Afflatus Misery - TRAIT - Afflatus Misery potency increases to 1320
LV 92: Dia II - Initial Potency is 70; damage over time is 70
LV 94: Purification - Usable while Asylum is in effect and replaces Asylum on the hotbar. 300 potency OGCD heal to all allies standing in your Asylum.
LV 96: Budding Afflatus - Adds 1 lily to your healing gauge. OGCD action on a 90 second cooldown.
LV 98: Enhanced Tetragrammaton - TRAIT - Increases the potency of Tetragrammaton to 900.
LV 100: Afflatus Conservation - GCD action that applies a 250 potency barrier to self and all nearby allies. Consumes 1 lily, nourishes the blood lily, and has a cooldown of 90 seconds.

Nothing else changes. We leave WHM at that, rework and revamp the other three to where their gameplay is varied, not unlike the tanks in terms of depth, and each offer some type of unique utility, and we just see what happens.

Honestly, that sounds all right.

No, it's just beyond my skill level and i'll play something else.

Which is why the best solution is to leave WHM as it is (for the "something else" people can go play), SCH its SB kit back, AST its SB/HW kit back, and SGE...I dunno, make it play like RDM without the melee phase.

Cure and Medica are made mostly irrelevant once you learn their more powerful versions

So are Tomahawk and honestly Maim and Heavy Swing which are only pressed because Storm's Eye/Path don't work without them. They're Glare/Dia with extra steps.

Cure III actually gets use in high end content pushing, single healer runs, and organize groups. It's considered one of the most powerful healing tools in the game.

to imply that we use them all equally at level 90

One doesn't imply something when they explicitly say it's not true. I noted that there's no perfect parity and that many are not used. But that's also true of WAR. For WAR's single target rotation, they don't use any of their AOE buttons. If WAR is Off-Tanking, they don't use most of their mitigation buttons. An OT WAR will use 1-2-3/4, Infuriate, Inner Release, Fell Cleave, Primal Rend, Upheaval, and probably Nascent Flash and Shake It Off/Reprisal (rarely). WHM will use Glare and Dia, of course, but also Solace, Rapture, Misery, Assize, Asylum, Temperance, Divine Benison, Tetra, Bene, Lilybell, Presence of Mind, Aquaveil, Plenary Indulgence, Swiftcast, Lucid, and Thin Air, and occasionally Medica 2 or Regen (for bleed heavy fights)

...that's a WHM not using any of their hardcast GCD heals. That's 20 buttons for WHM vs 12 for WAR. WAR has several buttons change to others based on context, and more of their buttons are GCDs. That's the difference.

If things like Assize, Asylum, Temperance, and so on were GCDs, then we'd have a closer parity. There'd be less Glare spam because you'd have to burn those GCDs on actual healing and defensive actions.

...and people would hate it. Thus we get Glarespam instead.

healers are really some of the only jobs (along with BLM, SMN, and MNK) which have redundant abilities on their hotbars.

Shield Bash, arguably Clemency (in high end raider forums), most AOE buttons (not used in Extremes/Savages)...I dunno, probably more than just Healers.

SE have no intentions of increasing healing requirements,

They literally just did this in the most recent raid tier. I don't think "have no intentions" is a statement of fact when it's been so recently disproven.

Going FORWARD, they may not do it again because of how much the community complained about it, but that's on the community. The community would also complain if we made the healer DPS kits more complex, so that's not a good counter argument.

That said:

I do agree that Cure should upgrade to Cure 2 (with a MP cost of 500 - Cure 2's MP cost is silly considering WHM is supposed to be the powerful throughput healer of the bunch), and I've proposed myself Aero 3 be added to the game as something other than Holy you can press in dungeons. Something that's a damage gain on 2/3+ targets like Holy is.

Medica has a use and gets a lot of use in 24 mans. Seriously, was doing one last night and so many people were eating vuln stacks I had no resources at any given time, and once you cast a Medica 2 and people are still standing in bad, your options are spot heal 5 party members with Cure 2, cast Medica, or stupidly cast Medica 2 over and over again while the HoT is still ticking. Medica is the answer to that.

Now, if Medica 2 (MP cost 900 instead of 1000, Potency 400 instead of 250 with a 150 Regen) where chain casting it was equally as effective as chain casting Medica 1, then a straight upgrade would make sense.

Deleting heals on a healer so you can make room for damage spells on a healer just seems weird.

Besides, we can go the WAR approach and just have buttons change to other buttons. Like after casting Dia, your next Glare could be "High Glare" that does 200% damage and has a more blinding animation. Likewise, Aero 3 could make the next Holy "High Holy" that uses the RDM LB3 animation.

First of all you didn't read my argument properly. At all.

I did.

The point I was making was that from SB to Shb AST changed people adapted. It doesn't matter if its easier or harder. That was never my point.

That wasn't your point because it very much matters.

People adapting to an easier thing is easier than people adapting to a harder thing. If you routinely run a mile a day and I ask you to only run half a mile, that's a change you can easily adapt to. If I ask you to up it to 5 miles a day, that's a change you cannot easily adapt to, and you may balk at the request or try it and then give up.

It's not your argument, because it defeats your argument. The reason I'm pointing it out isn't me saying it's your argument. I'm pointing it out because it defeats your argument.

That is, I wasn't saying that to "restate your argument in my own words". I was saying that as a counter argument.

The other point you completely missed was not about the amount of buttons a class has. I never brought that up.

The button argument was to compare WAR's overall kit to WHM's overall kit.

What I'm saying is that your argument for keeping WHM to having a 1 2 vs the other 3 healers getting an extra 3 4 is this:

7.0 all tanks have their extra dps removed. They're nothing but a 1-2-3. No Fell Cleave. No Gnashing Fang. No Requiescat. No Edge of Shadow etc.

Tanks complain. SE doesn't listen and refuses to change in 8.0.

Using WAR as a comparison to WHM your argument would be that PLD, GNB, and DRK would get some their dps back if not all of it, but WAR would NOT receive Fell Cleave underneath the argument that because people have been used to a 1-2-3 combo for 2 expansions and should keep it because and I'll quote:

No, that isn't the same thing.

The argument would be more like "All tanks have their 1-2-3 removed. Some people complain but a lot of people like it. So we return the 1-2-3 to all the Tanks but WAR, which just has Storm's Eye (Dia), Storm's Path (Glare), Orogeny that reduces party damage taken (Assize in more tank form), and Fell Cleave (Misery), along with Inner Release (Presence of Mind) and new GCD versions of Shake It Off (Rapture) and Nascent Flash (Solace) with a shared 20 sec CD that generate 20 Beast Gauge when used contributing to the next Fell Cleave (Misery)."

While people would complain, most people would be pretty happy with this. WAR would play not much differently than it does now (in fact, almost the same as it does now, just you'd want to use Shake/Nascent on CD or for movement), and the community would be thrilled they were getting "old PLD, old DRK, and old GNB" back for the people that didn't want to play "baby's first tank".

That is your argument for healers and WHM.

It's not, but the modified version shows that it would actually be a popular change.

And honestly, "keeping this play style" is in bad faith regardless. Why?

Oh, this should be good...

Because SE changed all healers to this. WHM didn't have a 1-2 playstyle in SB. There for, it shouldn't even be the one to keep it.

Uh...WHM had a 1-2 playstyle in SB. I'm trying to remember exactly when they removed Aero/made it upgrade into Aero 2, but I think that was before ShB. WHM's playstyle in SB was 2-3-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1-1, which is ALMOST the same as the current 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-3.

I think part of the problem with all of this is that you guys can't even correctly identify my argument or what an actual parallel of it would be or look like. So you think the worst instead.

Also also: That wouldn't make it a bad faith argument - nice try on yet another effort to "turn around" my accusation from before (against someone not you) on me - it would just me being wrong or mistaken about it.

Moreover: That isn't what you're asking for WHM - simply another DoT they refresh 2-3 times a minute.

FINALLY: I also said I'd be fine with it being SGE instead of WHM - SGE has always existed with this current playstyle - I just didn't think that was as logical of a choice.

I don't disagree with you at all, but you know what, maybe we need this and for WHM to crash and burn in order to shock the devs into reality. Or maybe none of us know what we're talking about and it'll be the hottest thing since sliced bread. Trial by fire.

The thing is, what happens if WHM is the most popular even under the new system?

I guess this would be the way to prove which style players prefer more definitively than anything else.