The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

When someone language starts incorporating language like change "screwing over a job",

Are you replying to me?

You realize I was replying to someone else - a proponent of change - using that wording, right? That is, the person wanting the change was using the "screwing over a job" language. I merely adopted the language they were using to further the discussion. If you're going to attack me over someone else's word choice, maybe you should be attacking them over their word choice first?

I start to think that now we are getting closer to one of the intrinsic reasons or even unconscious reasons that is the basis for their resistance to change.

What part of "Change 75% of the current paradigm" is "resistance to change", exactly?

Even the hint of change and the possibility that some people won't be able to adapt in the highest levels of content is simply not acceptable to them.

No, what's unacceptable to me is taking something away from some people just to make you people happy. It's incredibly selfish to think that changes should only suit you and those who are like you, no matter if they harm others or how much they harm others and their enjoyment.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

Actually, this is proof of the value of my proposal:

WHM in PvP plays a lot like it did before. While SGE was significantly changed (doesn't even have a remotely spamable heal), WHM can be played more or less the same as it always has been. You just get more kills now when you pop LB at the right times than you did before when your LB was just a heal. WHM LB is still a heal (and damage reduction) now.

SCH and AST were made into more support healers as well.

WHM play in PvP has the same general number of DPS abilities as PvE. Glarespam, Misery, Seraph, and Purgation in place of Glare, Misery, Dia, and Assize. Even similar CDs/use timers.

The PvP healer change is a "proof of concept" for why my idea is a good one and can work.

I think the lessons to learn from the PvP changes are that not every Job needs to really change much, and that shorter but more frequent and more impactful special abilities are more fun than scripted, longer CD ones. EDIT: Oh, and that not every Job in a role must play at all the same!:ENDEDIT

I'm going to be very honest.

Ultimates are the hardest in the game. Not Savage. Not Extreme.

And, this is also irrelevant: People have access to content now. The answer to the question "Would you be taking away content from them they currently enjoy?" would be "Yes. You would be." You can DEFEND that, but it makes your solution worse from a community and game design perspective of an active MMO. People get far angrier when you take things away from them than they do if you leave them alone or even if you add new things that they can't do.

If someone is doing the 'hardest content in the game', they are expected to know how to play their class.

And right now, they do.

Full stop.

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.

You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

What you don't get here is I'm the one trying to look out for the little guy while also looking out for you guys at the same time. It's why my solution is the good one, because it does give everyone some avenues to play healer where they can enjoy it and the content they clear just as they are clearing today.

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That said, I do agree with you on the learning curve between content needing to be smoothed a bit.

Lastly, please remove your head from your backside before you suffocate,

I'm not going to because I'm not an arse...but you realize this is probably a reportable insult, right?

Also, here's the part where I could say "Same to you, yours is farther up there."

EDIT:

Imagine if one of the healers (probably WHM if some people here got their way) in PVP didn't do any damage to enemies, it was all about keeping your team alive with healing. It'd be horrible to play against, and horrible to play AS, since you'd be target number one to get absolutely disintegrated, CCd out of the game and blown up before you can say 'Why didn't Guard save me'. And it'd mean less burst potential on your team, since you're essentially 4v5 in terms of damage output. The more I think about it the more I hate it why do I do this to myself

Who - literally who - in this thread is arguing for PvE WHMs to only heal allies and do no damage to enemies? (Or PvP ones, for that matter?)

Who has made that proposal? Who has made that argument?

Also, all those things you say would happen...already happen. CC chains against healers to delete them are already a thing. And Guard doesn't work for bupkis.

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Oh, super random aside, Roe, I wanted to ask you:

Did you play SCH in SB?

Not trying to prove a point, just curious if you did and really enjoyed it.

[ASkellington]

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.

You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

What you don't get here is I'm the one trying to look out for the little guy while also looking out for you guys at the same time. It's why my solution is the good one, because it does give everyone some avenues to play healer where they can enjoy it and the content they clear just as they are clearing today.
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First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time. Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class". That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added. Over the course of the expansion they'll learn. It isn't like we're asking for this in a midpatch. I had to relearn the seals system and how to use Exaltation, Macrocomos and the stupidness that is the area of Earthly Star.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

[Renathras]

First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time.

First of all, yes. Yes I am. You folks collectively need to stop telling other people what they do and don't think.

Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class".

And any and all SCHs, ASTs, and SGEs who dont are being told to "go play another class, WHM" under my model. Under yours, they're being told to "go play another game/quit".

Which is the more egregious issue?

That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Except as we've discussed, it wouldn't be "with 0 issue". It would be with major issues, including a lot of healers would be locked out of content they currently play and enjoy as they are playing and enjoying it today.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added.

You're not asking for a mere addition of a few upgrade skills. When WHM went into EW, they got Lilybell they can use on rare occasions, Aquaveil they can tack onto Benison for tank busters, and their old abilities got upgraded to get new animations. That didn't require relearning the Job. It wasn't a major change to the Job's gameplay.

In ShB, there was...but not as much as you might think. Aero 3 was swapped for Misery, Solace was use case identical to Cure 2 (but preferred), and Rapture to Medica. All other abilities that were changed were streamlined or made simplier, not made more complex and didn't require relearning the Job or stretching one's existing capabilities. In the case of SCH and AST, it was quite the opposite with them being majorly simplified instead.

Earthly Star getting turned into the size of a galaxy isn't something you have to adjust TO.

Adding Lilybell didn't make it where WHM's doing Extreme and Savage before were unable to clear Extreme and Savage in 6.X. You don't even have to use Lilybell to clear ANYthing now. So that's not even close to an apt comparison all around.

Over the course of the expansion they'll learn.

And if they don't?

And if they do but it takes a while?

Oh, right: They won't have access to content they have access to presently.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

No.

I'm telling you the argument "people won't have to change if they don't want to and will not lose anything if they don't" is a lie.

I'm also telling you some people won't.

And I'm further pointing out there's no reason that it must even happen in the first place.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

Kaiten removal made SAM less complex and easier to play - the exact opposite of what you propose.

And many people DID stop playing SAM over it.

Many people who even still play SAM still complain about it. Still want it changed.

Hell, people are still complaining about SB SCH, and that's been gone for, what, 4 years? Cleric Stance and that's be...close to 7+?

Clearly, people don't just get over it and move on.

[ForsakenRoe]

You're not asking for a mere addition of a few upgrade skills. When WHM went into EW, they got Lilybell they can use on rare occasions, Aquaveil they can tack onto Benison for tank busters, and their old abilities got upgraded to get new animations. That didn't require relearning the Job. It wasn't a major change to the Job's gameplay.

In ShB, there was...but not as much as you might think. Aero 3 was swapped for Misery, Solace was use case identical to Cure 2 (but preferred), and Rapture to Medica. All other abilities that were changed were streamlined or made simplier, not made more complex and didn't require relearning the Job or stretching one's existing capabilities. In the case of SCH and AST, it was quite the opposite with them being majorly simplified instead.

Earthly Star getting turned into the size of a galaxy isn't something you have to adjust TO.

Adding Lilybell didn't make it where WHM's doing Extreme and Savage before were unable to clear Extreme and Savage in 6.X. You don't even have to use Lilybell to clear ANYthing now. So that's not even close to an apt comparison all around.

It undermines your point pretty bad when your example 'yeh but they got this and it didn't require relearning' skills are all not-damage except Misery, which is not Aero3 in any way at all. Aero 3 required keeping up 100% of the time or as close as possible. Misery was a consolation prize for the longest time, a 'we are sorry you had to heal, heres a partial refund'. Now it's 'use in raidbuffs, purposely overheal to do so if needed' because it's damage neutral.

Now look at another role, tanks. Blade combo on PLD forced people to unlearn the muscle memory of going for a Goring Blade after their Confiteor, because you'd clip the empowered Valor DOT. Shadowbringer does big damage, but is best held for the 2min window, despite it being right there and ready to use. DoubleDown changed how GNB's build/spend ratio works out, I've heard there's about 3s of leeway with downtime before you fall behind and don't generate enough carts to keep the loop going. WAR keeps getting harder and harder to screw up and people are very vocal about it in other threads.

And no you can't go 'yeh but tanks are meant to do some damage to keep threat'. Replace 'deals X potency damage' with 'generates emnity equal to an attack with X potency damage' and it'd still keep aggro just fine, but without doing damage. Especially considering the 25x or whatever it is multiplier on threat generation that tank stance provides since SHB