The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[IDontPetLalas]

ForsakenRoe - Oh, it wasn't an extreme case as a "this is what they would do". It's proof by example: If the gap ISN'T significant, then people would complain that it's meaningless. For the gap to matter...it has to actually be significant enough to matter. But at that point, it will start being the difference between some groups clearing and wiping, at which case it now can't be said that it won't affect people.My point is just that it WILL affect people unless it's small enough to be irrelevant, and if it is that small, then people will be mad anyway.
Again, in your example, people will complain if the difference isn't significant. How do I know this? Look at how often people say the complex rotation needs to do more damage otherwise it wouldn't be fair because they're doing more work. Do you really believe people will be satisfied for doing the extra work if the damage difference is small enough to be trivial?And the goal isn't to "make it look silly". What I'm doing is looking at two cases (1) where the gap is big enough to be noticeable/relevant vs (2) where the difference is small enough not to be. The reason is to compare the two and project the likely reaction of the playerbase to it - which isn't hard because we've had this in the past and seen the reaction to it then.
*snip*

And I've already given you a proposal for a solution. Why is it not acceptable to you? That is, can you give me a reason all four healers NEED to be the deep end of the pool? You mention that all four being 0.6m deep is a problem - and I agree with this - it's the very reason I suggested not leaving things as they are. What I don't understand is the compelling reason that ALL the healers need to be 2m deep. Some of us are only 1.5m tall. Some people are only 0.6m tall. What about those people?

If someone is still only 3 feet tall (1 meter) at maturity, it's unfortunate, but they will not have a career in the NBA. They can however take a ball out to their neighbourhood court or their driveway and shoot some hoops, given that they have legs and arms.

If a healer just wants to heal use a single dot and their aoe DPS skill at 90, if no one is dying they'll likely be fine in normal content. However that doesn't mean that all of the healer roles should be limited to that for the sake of those people who want simple roles that will not even permit for the possibility of multi-tasking /more complex decision making. We aren't proposing that it is mandated, we are allowing for growth in the jobs.

[Renathras]

Shurrikhan - I guess we may just...disagree then. You say identical in complexity is fine, I disagree. Ever MMO I've every played had "easy" and "hard" classes. Even in FFXIV, other than healers and arguably ranged physical, the other roles/subroles have a gradient, even if some wish to claim it's small. I don't know what they're going to do with PLD as of this writing, but WAR is very clearly easier. Lower skill floor and skill ceiling. GNB is clearly more complex than WAR (even if I personally find it easier because it being rigid also means easy to keep track of). DRK has periods of complexity followed by periods of ease. PLD is kind of all over the place. Likewise, some melee are easier (SAM, RPR) than others (NIN) and some kind of "depending on who you ask" (MNK, DRG). Casters, likewise, have a gradient between BLM (widely considered one of the hardest Jobs in the game despite what should be mechanical non-complexity on paper) and SMN (widely considered the absolute easiest Job in the game), with RDM somewhere in between.

It seems counterintuitive that healers, despite having 4 Jobs, need them all to be of approximately equal complexity.

Regardless, that isn't really a reason to do it.

If you don't want playing a more difficult job to simply be 'griefing" and thereby pushed out of even the most basic spaces it, especially, would need for learning, it at least needs some reason to be played beyond just personal taste.

If it does the same damage, it wouldn't be 'griefing".

In this thread, you guys are arguing that personal taste WANTS a Job that has a harder time doing the same thing ... for no possible advantage. Which is it? I thought the argument here was that you guys were bored with current healer rotations and wanted something more complex so you didn't fall asleep at your keyboard. Not that you want to do more damage than other people. Those are two different arguments. Which is it we're having?

.



Okay, this is confusing me:

Each job having a satisfying number of damage-contributing actions would not force them into homogeneity.

You went into an in depth and reasonable discussion for healers to have a damage ability.

...I've not argued against healers having a damage ability.

None of that says that they need to have many damage buttons or complex rotations and interactions.

...moreover, I haven't argued against that directly, either; on the contrary, my very argument is to make SCH, SGE, and probably AST all more rotationally complex.

What are you arguing against here?

You didn't answer my question:

Why do we NEED all 4 healers to have 6 (or whatever) button DPS rotations?

Saying "they need damage buttons" doesn't answer that, because even 1 is having a damage button.

You said "a satisfying number", but what is that? Would you believe many people are satisfied with 1 button? Some want way more. What is the objective definition of "satisfying" in a number? Is it 3? 5? 8? What's that specific number? Why is that number NOT 1 or 2?

.

Keep in mind my argument is for SCH to have around 8, SGE to have around 5, AST to have around 4, and WHM to have 3 (which is what it has now if we don't count Assize, at which point it has 4). Why do they all need 6 or 8 or whatever instead of one being left with 3/4 as it has now?

I'm not seeing an answer to that question. To the why it must change for all healers.

I'm seeing answers to why we should change it for some healers, but that's the very thing I'm proposing. Why must it change for all healers? That's the question I'm not seeing an answer to.

[Renathras]

If someone is still only 3 feet tall (1 meter) at maturity, it's unfortunate, but they will not have a career in the NBA. They can however take a ball out to their neighbourhood court or their driveway and shoot some hoops, given that they have legs and arms.

If a healer just wants to heal use a single dot and their aoe DPS skill at 90, if no one is dying they'll likely be fine in normal content. However that doesn't mean that all of the healer roles should be limited to that for the sake of those people who want simple roles that will not even permit for the possibility of multi-tasking /more complex decision making. We aren't proposing that it is mandated, we are allowing for growth in the jobs.

Wait, are we talking about swimming pools or basketball now?

EDIT: Also, who said "all ... healer (Jobs?) should be limited to that"?

I've literally said to change three of the 4 healer Jobs. How is saying "3 should be different from now" saying "all 4 should be the same as now"? Those are incompatible statements...

.

Also, happy patch day, everyone! (Patch notes are now out! \o/ Going to give those a read. Later folks. o/)

[ForsakenRoe]

What I don't understand is the compelling reason that ALL the healers need to be 2m deep. Some of us are only 1.5m tall. Some people are only 0.6m tall. What about those people?

I'm not asking for them all to be 2m deep, I'm asking for them to all be swimming pools with ranging depths from 'kiddie pool' to '2m deep for able swimmers', and the players can choose how far towards the deep end they want to go. But your solution is to have 3 'proper swimming pool' healers, and one 'inflatable pool in the back yard' healer with WHM. All that's going to do is cause the players who perceive themselves to be more 'hardcore' to ostracize any and all who play the 'healer for dummies', as was the case with WHM in SB. 'Why play WHM when AST heal same but better damage contribution?'

Reason why someone might want to play a healer that has 3 DOTs to juggle instead of one 30s one as we have now might be, and stay with me on this cos it's gonna be a shocker, they like to be engaged while playing the game. Guess I'll take a turn at coming up with stupid extremes to illustrate a point. Imagine if, instead of SMN doing the primal skills like Ruby Rite or Slipstream or whatever, all that potency was baked into the 'summon demi-X' spell. All 4 MountainBusters and Topaz Thingys are all compiled into Titan summon, so SMN's rotation becomes 'summon Demi, afk for 20s, summon next'. It'd be the same damage output, but so so much more boring to play. Same goes for any class. Some people enjoy pressing 5 buttons to get the same output as a different class that only has to press 2. Some people enjoy the OGCD bombsite of DRK's 2min window, or GNB's Continuationfest, compared to WAR. But we don't need to hold all our resources on DRK, or keep our No Mercy and Gnashing Fang aligned on GNB, when our 'endgame content' is Troia. Because there, it does not matter what we press, or how suboptimally we play, as long as we don't wipe (and wiping is kinda difficult now, really). Besides, look how many people advocate keeping Energy Drain around, even though it's potency has been hobbled over and over. And when I've asked them in the past how low they'd accept it going, some have said 'if it still has potency, I want it kept'. Even ONE potency, because even at one single potency point, it offers that player a form of complexity to play around, a way to express their skill, even if it's completely outshone by crit variance.

I reckon I could clear P8S now as AST without playing a single card, due to gearing and having more ILVL than week 1. Does this mean we should delete cards entirely, because they're only something to worry about optimizing during the first few weeks of prog?

And eh, Cata, the expansion where they jacked healing throughput requirements through the roof, causing a mass exodus of healer mains from the role as they could not keep up with the sudden extra HPS requirements, having grown accustomed to the ez-breezy ride through Wrath Heroics a few months before? Where have I heard that situation unfolding recently...? But yeh, this once again is another data point to my theory: people got the idea of 'healers only heal' from some specific point, and haven't let go since. I assumed Cata or Mists, and this correlates. But there's evidence in earlier-WOW that healers were intended to do damage (wanding is manacost-free, Judgement of Wisdom, Druid Clearcasting triggering off of melee in Vanilla, Loatheb in Naxx as a bossfight), and retail is... retail, M+ and all that. So it's just this one, 2-4 year window of time, in one MMO (admittedly the biggest one on the market) that I guess everyone is accepting as 'the gold standard for Healer role design', despite A: the majority of this playerbase being allergic to anything even tangentially related to WOW, and B: WOW itself having moved past that design. Or is that why people want to have 'healers only heal', because WOW does expect some DPS from healers (and the players are vocal enough to tell you, with plenty of venom in their tone), so we must have FFXIV healers 'only heal' because WOW bad?

If the healers healed in different ways to each other, ie: Druid's HOT focus, Paladin's melee based builder/spender focus (which would actually have zero obstacles to implementation, now that every boss's arse takes up 75% of the arena), Disc's Disc-ing, then maybe the damage kit homogenization would be a tiny bit more palatable. Tiny bit. But even the healing side is horrendously homogenized, because I guess if Hypothetical Healer can't look at their kit and recognize 'ah this SGE skill, Prognosis, it like Medica, me spam' they just bluescreen and let the party die?

[Renathras]

I think the problem here is your perception of my perception. And also how you're using your perception as agreed upon objective positions. For example, "proper" swimming pools. You seem to want all the pools to have the same variable depths while I'm more interested in having a kid's pool, a backyard pool, an in-ground pool, and an olympic pool so people can swim in whichever one meets their needs.

Aside: The reason WHM was ostracized in SB had nothing to do with it being "healer for dummies". It was because Lilies were ridiculously bad and the Job was undertuned vs SCH and dAST. WHM was still the easiest healer in ShB but was brought to many many MANY clears and generally accepted as a good choice for healer in a lot of content. As you note, it was AST dealing better damage contribution, not WHM being easier, that was the problem. This is, btw, an argument for why the healers should NOT do higher damage based on skill or kit...

Reason why someone might want to play...

I don't understand who you're arguing against.

Did I not already say I can see why people would want to play healers with more damage buttons?

Did I not already suggest that three healers be changed to have more damage buttons?

I've already acknowledged this argument, why are you making it as if it were a counter to some point that I'm not arguing?


ALSO:

"they like to be engaged while playing the game"

So that means they don't need to do more damage, right? The DoTs can do the exact same potency as their filler spam spell and they'll still be happy because they're "more engaged", right? If them being more engaged by having more damage buttons is what makes them happy, then the damage of those buttons should be irrelevant as long as they aren't a DPS loss to use. I have a feeling that this isn't the actual answer. There's a curious principle in Economics. If you doubled the prices of everything but doubled someone's wages, the person should be no happier. They can only buy the exact same amount they could before. But, oddly, people ARE happier. Something about the larger number. While it seems that it shouldn't matter. Likewise, if people wanted to be more engaged, if that was all it took to make them happy, we could add dozens of DPS buttons that all did the same damage and they could be "more engaged". But the fact is, they wouldn't be, for...I think obvious reasons. While some few would like more buttons, many would see them as meaningless and pointless.

Unless, again, using them makes a large enough change to be noticeable. But once that happens, we again have the problem of it affecting people and reducing clears of content for people following their preferred playstyle, which they are allowed to do in the game right now as it is live (well, when the servers come back up), and thus is taking something away from people (actual content) in exchange for making some other people feel a bit "more engaged". This seems like a net loss for the community. Especially since there's an entirely workable counter that lets both get what they want.

Your SMN extreme doesn't work. WHM doesn't cast Dia then go afk for 30 seconds. It'd be more like if you hit your Primal summon that does 2x the damage of your <Elemental> Ruin 3, then you chain casted Ruin 3 for 20 seconds until the next Demi. And honestly, there are people that would be perfectly fine with that (and some that argue that's more or less all SMN is already...)

And eh, Cata...

lol, yeah, Cata's healing model sucked overall. Mists was the golden era for WoW, honestly. It was probably the best balanced and most fun expansion in WoW's history to play and heal. Pity so many people didn't like the "Kung Fu Panda" aesthetic (even though Pandaren predate KFP), as the expansion overall was one of the best in the game's history. The big problem was their class and encounter designers didn't get the same memo. The class designers were told that Cata healing was going to use a "triage model" where damage came in steady and healers were supposed to parse out heals to keep people at healthy levels but not necessarily 100% all the time. Then the encounter designers didn't get that memo, and so made encounters as big spike damage as Wrath. This resulted in healers HAVING to use their big expensive and mana inefficient heals just to survive because their healing kits were changed from Wrath healing so they didn't have the tools to do their basic job anymore. Combined with people forgetting they had crowd control abilities in dungeons and were supposed to use them again like BC, it created the perfect storm.

As to the earlier in its history: Wanding was autoattack. It wasn't an active button you pressed. That'd be like if in FFXIV a WHM right-clicked the boss and, when not casting heals, un-actively twacked them with their staffs. Not exactly the gameplay you're asking for (nor I, for that matter). Vanilla healers were actively discouraged from dpsing. And some from healing. (PLDs were brought for their buffs and Druids for Innevation, I think the name of it is?) Or, in some cases, from even entering combat (Paladins). Druids were brought to Vanilla raids to give mana to the Holy Priests, whose sole job was healing because mana economy kind of sucked. The reason healers didn't damage was because they couldn't without being unable to heal. There weren't massive mana free heals like there are now in WoW, so if you went oom, your tank died, and that meant you failed at your role. Also, healer damage spells were garbage at the time while costing stupidly high mana, and worse, agro management was very much an issue, and heals already generated a lot of agro, meaning doing additional damage risked turning the boss on the healer (and likely cleaving the raid)

It also wasn't just WoW. And it wasn't for a very short time (Holy Paladins spammed one button (Holy Light) for two solid expansions!) Everquest did this (including with sitting, called "meditating", during the fight to gain mana back. Given EQ massive bosses could take literal hours to kill...) EQ2 did this some. LotRO did this some, etc. It was a staple of MMOs from their inception to the 2010s that healers were supposed to heal and only deal damage tangentially. Even in FFXIV 1.0 this was true, as well as most of 2.X. For WHM, this was true as late as SB, and even in ShB/EW they use GCDs for healing (but have enough oGCDs now to largely limit it to just Lily spells)

It wasn't "just this one, 2-4 year window of time, in one MMO".

...though that doesn't matter at all: What matters is that it's what some players want. It's irrelevant why they want it.

Some people enjoy pressing 5 buttons to get the same output...

Who are you trying to convince here? I've already said such people exist, which is why I think healers should be like tanks with a simple option and then three flavors of more complex. I'm not sure why you're posting in reply to me when the points you're raising are ones I've already stated I agree with and are the basis of my proposal. Did you mean to quote Shurrikhan? Shurrikan has argued against some of these points.

[Shurrikhan]

If it does the same damage, it wouldn't be 'griefing".

Except, in practice, they don't. If one has the same maximum performance as another, but also has almost nothing that can go wrong compared to the other, in practice their actual performance will be higher until such time as the given player makes zero mistakes. They'd be balanced for the highest end... at the expense of freedom of job choice for everyone else.

Even in FFXIV, other than healers and arguably ranged physical, the other roles/subroles have a gradient, even if some wish to claim it's small.

Yes, and look at what that costs the role. Their damage is as truncated as their skill ceiling. And if they weren't, they'd then be pushing all others out because why would anyone optimize BLM when they could just combo-roll-and-hit-on-CD on MCH for the very same damage. Why would either be a good thing?

...maybe you missed the in Cataclysm part. Druids in current, to my knowledge, have two flavors, Feral for Mythic and Balance for Raids (I haven't played WoW since Legion, but I try to read up on it in Icy Veins from time to time), with the later seeming to play a lot like FFXIV WHM with an added DoT (that may be AOE, I think Sunfire is AOE now...?)

Then your knowledge is, well, off. Or at least hyperbolic. (More below, expandable.)

Feral has higher mids but lower peaks and lower minimums than Balance in raid, outperforming it in slightly more fights but to lower overall performance. Neither is a set "raid" spec over the other except by past tradition (of, all else being equal, taking ranged over melee in order not to crowd mechanics).

They're also neck and neck in Mythic+, with Balance outnumbering Feral for parses. (Why? Probably because Balance has pretty much always been a more played spec than Feral. Who can really argue against a giant moon-chucking chicken, after all?)

And no part of that has to do with one being necessarily more complex or damage-focused than the other (both can take very simple or relative complex builds).

That is, can you give me a reason all four healers NEED to be the deep end of the pool?

Because there is no "deep end" in isolation, only how far the pool goes. No one's asking for an obscure healer that'd require a treatise to even get started with.

You've been seemingly suggesting we diversify healers by truncating what they each have access to. A larger group in this thread would appear to prefer instead to simply build a whole, large pool --from shallow to deep-- and let players go as far as they personally feel is worthwhile.

[Semirhage]

I'm just here to object to the evergreen, ceaseless call for the "perfect" solution to terrible design in the healer role: lol just designate WHM as the one that's the least engaging and sucks and make the other three more engaging, more powerful, or both more engaging and more powerful. Easy! If you object to it, you're just a one-trick healer who refuses to change to a different job; MY favorite job gets fixed in this scenario, so go off and play DPS or something if you don't like it.

[ForsakenRoe]

Feral has higher mids but lower peaks and lower minimums than Balance in raid, outperforming it in slightly more fights but to lower overall performance. Neither is a set "raid" spec over the other except by past tradition (of, all else being equal, taking ranged over melee in order not to crowd mechanics).

Reason I mentioned Feral and Balance was not as the actual specs, but as skillsets that Resto can dip into and 'do damage as a healer'. Though, in several parts of the past Feral has been horrendously ignored/forgotten about, lacking cohesiveness, throughput, and general care for the design. Despite these dark times, some players stuck with it, because they loved the class, despite Rogue being easier or having more DPS or whatever.

I'll reword what I'm trying to convey, once again: Ren, you are advocating for 3 healers to be 'swimming pool' and one to be 'inflatable backyard pool'. I am saying that by doing this, you leave that one healer (WHM) stuck in a situation where, once a player feels they have experienced the depth of the class (which will happen sooner, due to less overall depth, backyard pool and all that), they are forced, by your design, to either reroll (requiring they level a whole other class) or just put up and shut up that they're on the 'simple healer'. I'm saying that all four healers should be 'swimming pool' ,and that I have confidence that the playerbase will swim at the depth level they find comfortable. Shallow end for less able swimmers/learners, deeper end for able swimmers, sort of middleish for 'people who are starting to get good at swimming, but still shallow enough to set their feet down on solid ground if panic sets in'. I don't get how this isn't getting through, it's like you read 'deep end' and just assume I want to throw them all into the ocean to let them drown

As for timespans, yeh I'll confess I never played EQ or read anything about it beyond it's age, and that some WOW devs were from top EQ guilds. BUT, I can also link this: World first Gordias, now I'm pretty tired, eyes blurry etc, but I'm pretty sure that's Aero 3 and Stone 3 being cast. And here's WF Deltascape for comparison.So yeh, 'as late as SB' might have been true for like, your friend circle or something, but the rest of the game was busy pumping DPS and struggling to keep up with the horrendous MP costs WHM had on Stone back then

As to the earlier in its history: Wanding was autoattack. It wasn't an active button you pressed. That'd be like if in FFXIV a WHM right-clicked the boss and, when not casting heals, un-actively twacked them with their staffs. Not exactly the gameplay you're asking for

Since Ruin and Ruin 2 were equal potency back then (with R2 being more MP hungry), some SCHs did actually do that, bonk enemies with their book for bonus damage. Here's a thread on reddit on the subject that took almost zero time to find. Note that since Broil was added in HW, rendering the 'equal potency R1/R2' thing moot, this means that the idea was occuring during ARR. OP of the thread also mentions FCOB by name, if you prefer to find out that way

I'm just here to object to the evergreen, ceaseless call for the "perfect" solution to terrible design in the healer role: lol just designate WHM as the one that's the least engaging and sucks and make the other three more engaging, more powerful, or both more engaging and more powerful. Easy! If you object to it, you're just a one-trick healer who refuses to change to a different job; MY favorite job gets fixed in this scenario, so go off and play DPS or something if you don't like it.

On that we agree at least. Why does WHM seem to always get designated as the 'depth of a puddle' healer? Because it's the only one that starts at level 1? DH in WOW started at 98 out of 110, and it was unbelievably newplayer friendly!

[Renathras]

I'm just here to object to the evergreen, ceaseless call for the "perfect" solution to terrible design in the healer role: lol just designate WHM as the one that's the least engaging and sucks and make the other three more engaging, more powerful, or both more engaging and more powerful. Easy! If you object to it, you're just a one-trick healer who refuses to change to a different job; MY favorite job gets fixed in this scenario, so go off and play DPS or something if you don't like it.

Honestly, it doesn't even have to be WHM. It could be SGE, or even AST. And no one's asking for the other three to be "more powerful" except the people saying that anything not as complex should be nerfed by comparison. Which isn't any of the people proposing the "change 3" idea.

Everyone has to sacrifice to reach a compromise. Changing all four forces a ton of players to sacrifice either their playstyle or content (or both) for no gain at all to them. Changing 3 is the give and take where everyone sacrifices something but also gains something. Which is what a compromise should be.

.

Yes, and look at what that costs the role."

What do you mean? Melee have a gradient. That's bad? Casters have a gradient and all of them are useful. Tanks have a gradient, the problem is PLD does crap damage and has a missing mitigation (both of which are presumably the target of the changes in 6.3). SAM's aren't being blacklisted from parties. NINs aren't being blacklisted from parties. A good BLM is always welcome in parties because they legitimately are worth bringing. Having variations in complexity doesn't seem to be a problem in any of the other roles. The only problem comes if some Jobs do significantly less damage overall than others. Like MCH doing less (party) than DNC/BRD or PLD doing less than the other three tanks. This is only acceptable if they have tremendous utility (Verraise for example) to make up for it.

On Druids: So Feral is even less played as a subspect? Well, guess that makes my point for me, then. I thought it at least had a niche it was better in.

Looking at the two builds, though, Balance seemed more simple to me when I read about it in Shadowlands. But it's hard to say without playing it, I suppose.

Because there is no "deep end" in isolation

Where did I suggest we truncate healers? I suggested we expand three healers and leave one alone. How is that truncation?

I DID suggest we focus them in different areas, but to do so while expanding them into those areas so that the net area is greater than (or equal to) before, not less than. I'm a bit confused what you think I'm proposing?

Also, where did I say someone was asking for a healer that requires a treatise? I've noted actual number values, such as 6 or 8 damage buttons. Those are concrete things, not some nebulous "it's too hard".

A larger group in this thread...

Note that the official forums make up a tiny fraction of the playerbase, and the independent posters in this thread is/are around 30, which is the absolute minimum N to even try to do something with statistics, and tends to generate poor results. That's also ignoring that not everyone in this thread is in agreement.

...which is a fancy way of saying "this thread" or even "this forum" is not likely representative of the playerbase as a whole.

.

EDIT:

Ren, you are advocating for 3 healers to be 'swimming pool' and one to be 'inflatable backyard pool'.

No, I'm not.

I'm advocating for the 4 healers to be normal sized backyard swimming pool (the 3 foot ones), large backyard swimming pool (the 4-5 foot ones), in-ground pool/city pool, and Olympic pool, where 2 and 3 are largely side-grades to each other.

I'm not advocating for anything to be "inflatable backyard pool" nor am I advocating the other 3 be identical.

I'm actually advocating for the exact opposite of that, for the other 3 to also be diverse and distinct from each other.

BUT, I can also link this: World first Gordias, now I'm pretty tired, eyes blurry etc, but I'm pretty sure that's Aero 3 and Stone 3 being cast.

It is, but I can also link you videos of ARR and HW where the WHM isn't casting many damage spells, including 2nd Coil and 3rd Coil. Also, Gordias is LEGENDARY for being overtuned, to the point of breaking guilds, sidelining PLDs and MNKs, and so on. I don't think using a world first Gordias is very indicative of the general raider community, or larger community, at the time. In fact, I just noticed World first, which kind of indicates that was NOT normal at the time for general raiders or the general playerbase. Surely you realize that as well, yes?

I don't think using a World First clear is a good example of the playerbase as a whole. I'm not sure who would think it is.

Since Ruin and Ruin 2...

Once more, I'm confused what you're arguing. Are you now arguing that healer damage be exclusively auto-attacks? Surely not... I mean, I KNOW you aren't, so I'm confused why you're advocating for auto-attack heavy design...? I mean, I guess we could do that (technically optimal RDM play is to do that, I think, as all those little auto-attack damage strikes when Dualcasting add up), but...

[IDontPetLalas]

Wait, are we talking about swimming pools or basketball now?

EDIT: Also, who said "all ... healer (Jobs?) should be limited to that"?

I've literally said to change three of the 4 healer Jobs. How is saying "3 should be different from now" saying "all 4 should be the same as now"? Those are incompatible statements...

.

Also, happy patch day, everyone! (Patch notes are now out! \o/ Going to give those a read. Later folks. o/)

Allow me to simplify further. Which of the jobs would be the " I really only want a basic simple healer job"? Now, how would you explain your choice to someone if that was their main, how would explain why one of the other healers wasn't selected? What would you tell them to do- pick of the other healers? What if they didn't want to switch?
This is the type of potential issues that you open up and I don't see a good or necessary reason to do so.