The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[IDontPetLalas]

ForsakenRoe - Oh, it wasn't an extreme case as a "this is what they would do". It's proof by example: If the gap ISN'T significant, then people would complain that it's meaningless. For the gap to matter...it has to actually be significant enough to matter. But at that point, it will start being the difference between some groups clearing and wiping, at which case it now can't be said that it won't affect people.My point is just that it WILL affect people unless it's small enough to be irrelevant, and if it is that small, then people will be mad anyway.
Again, in your example, people will complain if the difference isn't significant. How do I know this? Look at how often people say the complex rotation needs to do more damage otherwise it wouldn't be fair because they're doing more work. Do you really believe people will be satisfied for doing the extra work if the damage difference is small enough to be trivial?And the goal isn't to "make it look silly". What I'm doing is looking at two cases (1) where the gap is big enough to be noticeable/relevant vs (2) where the difference is small enough not to be. The reason is to compare the two and project the likely reaction of the playerbase to it - which isn't hard because we've had this in the past and seen the reaction to it then.
*snip*

And I've already given you a proposal for a solution. Why is it not acceptable to you? That is, can you give me a reason all four healers NEED to be the deep end of the pool? You mention that all four being 0.6m deep is a problem - and I agree with this - it's the very reason I suggested not leaving things as they are. What I don't understand is the compelling reason that ALL the healers need to be 2m deep. Some of us are only 1.5m tall. Some people are only 0.6m tall. What about those people?

If someone is still only 3 feet tall (1 meter) at maturity, it's unfortunate, but they will not have a career in the NBA. They can however take a ball out to their neighbourhood court or their driveway and shoot some hoops, given that they have legs and arms.

If a healer just wants to heal use a single dot and their aoe DPS skill at 90, if no one is dying they'll likely be fine in normal content. However that doesn't mean that all of the healer roles should be limited to that for the sake of those people who want simple roles that will not even permit for the possibility of multi-tasking /more complex decision making. We aren't proposing that it is mandated, we are allowing for growth in the jobs.

[Renathras]

If someone is still only 3 feet tall (1 meter) at maturity, it's unfortunate, but they will not have a career in the NBA. They can however take a ball out to their neighbourhood court or their driveway and shoot some hoops, given that they have legs and arms.

If a healer just wants to heal use a single dot and their aoe DPS skill at 90, if no one is dying they'll likely be fine in normal content. However that doesn't mean that all of the healer roles should be limited to that for the sake of those people who want simple roles that will not even permit for the possibility of multi-tasking /more complex decision making. We aren't proposing that it is mandated, we are allowing for growth in the jobs.

Wait, are we talking about swimming pools or basketball now?

EDIT: Also, who said "all ... healer (Jobs?) should be limited to that"?

I've literally said to change three of the 4 healer Jobs. How is saying "3 should be different from now" saying "all 4 should be the same as now"? Those are incompatible statements...

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Also, happy patch day, everyone! (Patch notes are now out! \o/ Going to give those a read. Later folks. o/)

[IDontPetLalas]

Wait, are we talking about swimming pools or basketball now?

EDIT: Also, who said "all ... healer (Jobs?) should be limited to that"?

I've literally said to change three of the 4 healer Jobs. How is saying "3 should be different from now" saying "all 4 should be the same as now"? Those are incompatible statements...

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Also, happy patch day, everyone! (Patch notes are now out! \o/ Going to give those a read. Later folks. o/)

Allow me to simplify further. Which of the jobs would be the " I really only want a basic simple healer job"? Now, how would you explain your choice to someone if that was their main, how would explain why one of the other healers wasn't selected? What would you tell them to do- pick of the other healers? What if they didn't want to switch?
This is the type of potential issues that you open up and I don't see a good or necessary reason to do so.

[Renathras]

ForesakenRoe - I was talking about EW.

SAMs are not being blacklisted from parties in EW despite them having a different level of complexity from NINs and MNKs. CLEARLY Jobs do not need to be equally complex in order to earn party spots. That was the point I was making. They just need to do comparable damage OR have some ridiculously good utility that makes up for reduced damage.

And yeah, I'm kinda done with this discussion as we've all said what we're going to and reached a stalemate of not convincing anyone of anything, so this will probably be my last post for a bit.

But so you know, I don't care a whit about parses. There are reasons I don't run a parser. The TOS is one, but another is I genuinely don't care about them. So it's not relevant to our conversation.

ALSO: If you're going to make arguments for me, then I see no reason to post. This is like the 5th time you've outright ignored me replying to you saying "You're saying X" with "No, I'm not saying X", and I'm tired of telling you you're lying about what I'm saying. When you say "So you're saying..." and someone outright tells you "No, that's not what I'm saying", it's very rude to say "No, that's totally what you're saying, even though you're saying it's not and you've explained why it's not."

VERY rude.

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Allow me to simplify further. Which of the jobs would be the " I really only want a basic simple healer job"? Now, how would you explain your choice to someone if that was their main, how would explain why one of the other healers wasn't selected? What would you tell them to do- pick of the other healers? What if they didn't want to switch?
This is the type of potential issues that you open up and I don't see a good or necessary reason to do so.

Well...

1) ...I'd point out the alternative was no Jobs being changed at all so they'd all still have the EW rotations. That is the alternative. You guys seem to think the default position is the change you're proposing. It's not. The default position is for the game to stay as it is today. THAT is the default.

2) ...I'd note that any one of the healers could have been the one left alone, but the one that ends up being left alone would likely be the logical choice. For example, if it's WHM, it makes sense for it to be the simple one. It's always been the simple one, so that's the existing precedent. It's the one that starts at the lowest level, so it makes sense that most players' first healer would be the one easy to play. It's also the one that has a working GCD heal model right now (with Lilies; the other three actively avoid pressing any GCD heal unless they're forced to do so). Collectively, these make it the logical choice. An alternative would be SGE. A bit less logical (Kardia existing means that SGE having an actual damage rotation makes logical sense since said rotation results in healing), but probably the second best option for the simple healer. Starting at a higher level would mean players who don't have a healer but want to pick one up would logically reach for it, meaning it being a simple model does have some merit. And the other two options, AST with Cards and buffs and SCH with pet management and even more oGCDs, make less sense. SGE would need to be redesigned so its GCD heals were more powerful, though, but we could do that.

3) ...I'd ask them which they find more important, the aesthetic or the playstyle. And then I'd say pick the one that has that. Understand, I'd be doing the same thing. The healer I like the aesthetic of the most is SCH, but under this change, I'd likely end up playing the other three instead (right now I play all three other than AST). So this is a case of "I'm not asking you to do something I wouldn't be doing myself". Right now I play WHM, SCH, and SGE. Under this change, I'd probably end up just playing WHM and SGE, or possibly just one of those, losing one (or two) of my own healers.

4) ...then no one's forcing them to. They can keep playing the Job they play today. Remember that the 1 being left alone is the 1 being left alone, meaning if they are playing it right now, they'd be no worse off than they are right now other than being jealous of other people, I guess.

5) ...yes, these are potential issues you open up. What you're ignoring is all the issues you would open up by changing all four healers.

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What do YOU tell the people who want a basic healer that their main isn't basic anymore?

How do you explain to them that none of the healers are so they have no way to enjoy the game anymore?

What do you tell them to do - quit healing? Quit the game?

What if they don't want to quit? What if they don't want to do the damage? Now you're going to tell them they don't get to clear content and they don't, in your mind, deserve to clear the content?

What happens when PF can't find healers anymore? What happens when healers aren't in DF because so many people quit healing?

Those are all potential issues you open up that I don't see a good or necessary reason to do so.

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You seem to argue your idea to change all 4 healers wouldn't alienate anyone (or would only alienate a small amount of people that's irrelevant) when there's zero support for that position. You also seem to argue that this wouldn't have huge ramifications and that this is the default position that anyone who doesn't like it has to argue against and compromise with, rather than your proposal being the new thing and the current situation being the default you must compromise with.

I'm even offering you a compromise that would do so and give you 3 out of 4 things that you're asking for. Which, in the real world, is a pretty good compromise in your favor...

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At the end of the day...none of us are going to convince the other of anything.

All I'm saying is my proposal is the one that would make the most people happy, require the least unhappy people, require the least change, the least alienation, and would allow everyone to be at least somewhat happy. Kinda like ranked choice voting where you get your second pick and I get my third pick. No one's perfectly happy, but everyone has something they can be content they got from the bargain.

Given the alternative is for healers to remain exactly as they are today, it's a deal that people should be jumping on rather than attacking. Considering the alternative is you get 0/nothing, NOT that you get 4/everything.