The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Heroman3003]

There is rather complicated issue with all the demanded healer feedback sumrised. From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons. Main issue there, is that the two solutions are not compatible, and adding one will only anger the other crowd.

If content is designed in way that all the existing healer buttons that are completely useless in 99% of the actual game content are actually necessary in at least half of it - suddenly healing becomes complicated and hard at all levels, and of course, as we all know well, the one to get all the blame for failure even when its not actually their fault, is the healer. Now imagine how much worse it will be when it WILL be the healer's fault. And not to mention that old content will have the issues still, and only new content can be designed that way.

On the other hand, if the approach of 'add more buttons' for DPS rotation is taken... Well, I present a question of 'where the hell does it fit?'. Most healers have 2 full and one about 2/3rds full 12-slot hotbars of spells and abilities. Where the hell do you fit more? You could, say, prune existing skills, since, as said above, they're only really used in savage and extreme content basically... But then what becomes of healers in that content? The healing itself loses complexity.

I think that's the issue of listening to feedback given by people who almost exclusively play high-end stuff like Savage and Extremes. As someone who explicitly has 0 interest in grindstone that is Savage at the moment, I think healers have too many 'do nothing' buttons; but those buttons with their miniscule mitigations and stat adjustments do matter.... but only in Savage and Extreme. So you can't just remove them to make space for things useful and fun-to-use everywhere because of their importance in savage and you can't make them necessary to use everywhere either because that would raise skill floor of healers in general a lot higher, for a role that is the sacrificial goat whenever anything goes wrong.

Honestly, personally, I think current state of healer is 'fine'. Not insanely great, but also not terrible. There are a few skills I literally dont see reasons for existing (Ruin II....) that could be removed with 0 loss, but just not enough to make space for 'real DPS rotation' everyone demands; and I can't imagine any of the excessively loud savage-grinding minority being happy if all those 5% mitigation math abilities are replaced with something more 'practical' on simpler levels of content either. And making healer complex at all stages of the game would just mean less people breaking through the skill floor, which means less fresh people willing to heal, all while old healers who want something that just wont fit will inevitably remain dissatisfied.

[IDontPetLalas]

There is rather complicated issue with all the demanded healer feedback sumrised. From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons.
On the other hand, if the approach of 'add more buttons' for DPS rotation is taken... Well, I present a question of 'where the hell does it fit?'. Most healers have 2 full and one about 2/3rds full 12-slot hotbars of spells and abilities.
I think that's the issue of listening to feedback given by people who almost exclusively play high-end stuff like Savage and Extremes. As someone who explicitly has 0 interest in grindstone that is Savage at the moment, I think healers have too many 'do nothing' buttons; but those buttons with their miniscule mitigations and stat adjustments do matter.... but only in Savage and Extreme. So you can't just remove them to make space for things useful and fun-to-use everywhere because of their importance in savage and you can't make them necessary to use everywhere either because that would raise skill floor of healers in general a lot higher, for a role that is the sacrificial goat whenever anything goes wrong.
snip

I believe you've underestimated the options that could be available.

To keep it short
1 It is not necessarily "more buttons and more reasons to push buttons"- that is busywork. If you read prior posts, you will see "engagement" popping up many times, there is a nuance there that is quite different.

2 You then express a concern over hotbars and buttons - we have already seen that SE can integrate skills in PVP, even in PVE- so that a single button is used for more than one skill. It is not mandatory to add more buttons IF additional skills are added - and, in fact, some skills may be removed or combined.

3- Feedback from those people who play Savage and Ultimate SHOULD be listened to because basically- have read their skills, need to know how their skills integrate with the other roles, and have gone past the basic learning curve in their roles so that they have the judgement to use the skills optimally.

4- The concern that you're expressing regarding removing mitigation from some roles ? If not used, it wipes people in Savage content now, it doesn't in normal content. I doubt very much that SE would change that, however if they did make things hit harder if it wasn't mitigated by healers at some points, that would be great.

5- I think most people would accept that early (pre level 50) should be simple, but as with other roles there should be a feeling of growth, and certainly by level 90, then it should be a fully-fleshing job that has some depth and complexity and it should lose its homogenization. Personally, I don't want it so dumbed down that someone can leave it on a shelf for months, or have it as a alt, or perform as well as someone who has mained it for years.

[GrimGale]

On the other hand, if the approach of 'add more buttons' for DPS rotation is taken... Well, I present a question of 'where the hell does it fit?'. Most healers have 2 full and one about 2/3rds full 12-slot hotbars of spells and abilities. Where the hell do you fit more? You could, say, prune existing skills, since, as said above, they're only really used in savage and extreme content basically... But then what becomes of healers in that content? The healing itself loses complexity.

How to make the DPS part more engaging with 3 dps buttons: By World of Warcraft's Restoration Shaman.

You get 1 DoT: Flame Shock
You get 1 Quick basic damaging spell: Lightning Bolt
You get 1 very slow cast but very hard hitting Nuke: Lava Burst

Flame Shock has a chance, everytime it deals damage over time, to cause your Next Lava Burst to become instant cast.

Lava Burst will crit if it hits a target affect with Flame Shock

Now, replace Flame Shock with Dia, Lightning Bolt with Glare and Lava Burst with, I dunno, some new very flashy spell that is very satisfying visually.

[ForsakenRoe]

Now, replace Flame Shock with Dia, Lightning Bolt with Glare and Lava Burst with, I dunno, some new very flashy spell that is very satisfying visually.

bring back fluid aura, rename to water, upgrades to banish, problem solved

[AFuzzyMu11in]

There is rather complicated issue with all the demanded healer feedback sumrised. From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons. Main issue there, is that the two solutions are not compatible, and adding one will only anger the other crowd.

If content is designed in way that all the existing healer buttons that are completely useless in 99% of the actual game content are actually necessary in at least half of it - suddenly healing becomes complicated and hard at all levels, and of course, as we all know well, the one to get all the blame for failure even when its not actually their fault, is the healer. Now imagine how much worse it will be when it WILL be the healer's fault. And not to mention that old content will have the issues still, and only new content can be designed that way.

On the other hand, if the approach of 'add more buttons' for DPS rotation is taken... Well, I present a question of 'where the hell does it fit?'. Most healers have 2 full and one about 2/3rds full 12-slot hotbars of spells and abilities. Where the hell do you fit more? You could, say, prune existing skills, since, as said above, they're only really used in savage and extreme content basically... But then what becomes of healers in that content? The healing itself loses complexity.

I think that's the issue of listening to feedback given by people who almost exclusively play high-end stuff like Savage and Extremes. As someone who explicitly has 0 interest in grindstone that is Savage at the moment, I think healers have too many 'do nothing' buttons; but those buttons with their miniscule mitigations and stat adjustments do matter.... but only in Savage and Extreme. So you can't just remove them to make space for things useful and fun-to-use everywhere because of their importance in savage and you can't make them necessary to use everywhere either because that would raise skill floor of healers in general a lot higher, for a role that is the sacrificial goat whenever anything goes wrong.

Honestly, personally, I think current state of healer is 'fine'. Not insanely great, but also not terrible. There are a few skills I literally dont see reasons for existing (Ruin II....) that could be removed with 0 loss, but just not enough to make space for 'real DPS rotation' everyone demands; and I can't imagine any of the excessively loud savage-grinding minority being happy if all those 5% mitigation math abilities are replaced with something more 'practical' on simpler levels of content either. And making healer complex at all stages of the game would just mean less people breaking through the skill floor, which means less fresh people willing to heal, all while old healers who want something that just wont fit will inevitably remain dissatisfied.

Great post you summed up my thoughts exactly

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, personally, I think current state of healer is 'fine'. Not insanely great, but also not terrible. There are a few skills I literally dont see reasons for existing (Ruin II....) that could be removed with 0 loss, but just not enough to make space for 'real DPS rotation' everyone demands; and I can't imagine any of the excessively loud savage-grinding minority being happy if all those 5% mitigation math abilities are replaced with something more 'practical' on simpler levels of content either. And making healer complex at all stages of the game would just mean less people breaking through the skill floor, which means less fresh people willing to heal, all while old healers who want something that just wont fit will inevitably remain dissatisfied.

There's parts to this comment (the full one). On one hand I agree, healer mains are pulling in both directions of 'more dps skills' and 'more healing required'. That's just how it is with a divisive topic like this, we're all gonna have different ways we think 'the problem can/should be solved'. Personally I'm on the 'more DPS skills' side, because I do Savage in PF (yes even this tier), I see first hand how hard the bleeds ticked in week 1, and how much they're falling off as a threat since then, because of gear, people getting better at mitigation planning, etc. I also think DPS skills is the way to go, as it leaves the job of 'healers should heal' as it currently is, accessible to new players. Healing and keeping the party alive is the skill floor. By doing DPS at all as a healer, the player is starting to reach for the skill ceiling. So to expand that skill ceiling, we should add to the DPS side, not moving the whole building up by raising the skill floor too.

As an example of removing some healing CDs to make room for DPS stuff, let's say we merged Horoscope with Celestial Opposition, as I suggested in a couple other threads. Horoscope on it's own is kinda sucky, 200p healing unless you GCD heal to empower it. And if you DO spend a GCD to empower it? 400 potency. The heal that empowers it heals for more, at minimum, the same as the OGCD you're trying to power up! Does that really need to be a seperate button, instead of a bonus healing effect tied to another skill as a trait? While some people's DPS additions take a whole rework, others have suggested stuff that works within the confines of what we have now. We don't need DRG's 10button GCD loop here, I'd aim for more something closer to DNC, or RDM. DNC's basic kit is 1-2, with 3 and 4 as procs, and then the complexity is how it builds off of that, with feathers, esprit etc. At it's core, RDM is just 5 GCDs, Stone, Aero, Fire, Thunder, and Jolt for when RNG hates you. Then it builds on that core with a builder/spender system, OGCDs to weave, etc. With healers there's actually MORE room for this, as we can have the 'complexity it builds off into' be healing instead of more damage. We have 'healing feeds into your damage' with WHM lilies, or SGE building Toxicon via E.Diagnosis breaking (though that's a DPS loss that needs looking at, atm), why not look into ways to make 'damage feed into healing'? Again, a certain forum user (cough) made an idea for WHM where Glare, Dia, and a new 15sec CD Banish spell, would charge a gauge, and at 50 gauge the player could use a damage-neutral GCD AOE heal that's nearly Cure3 strong, but without that obscene MP cost.

Some of my ideas, for example (yeh I know self-plug how cringe) would need like, at maximum 4 buttons. For SCH, for example, it'd take 3 slots, to add back 2 extra dots (Miasma and Shadowflare) and a new gauge spender mechanic that interacts with Aetherflow heals. With LB, potion, Summon Eos (sorry Selene) and Repose on a seperate 'utility hotbar' that I click to activate (because they're so rarely used), I'm at 31 binds for SCH. Have Physick upgrade into Adlo, and Lustrate into Excog, that takes me to 29. Delete Aetherflow, make Energy Drain do '300p damage, 1min CD, grants 3 Aetherflow and 2000MP', that makes it 28. Now there's 3 spots to add the dots, gauge spender, one spare slot for LB or potion, and that makes a round 32, the amount of binds on 4 X-Hotbars for controller gamers. There's other ways to get the button count down too that aren't the ones I suggested here too, just these are the ones I'd do. For WHM I'd only need 2 new buttons for DPS, and my hotbars already have 5 spare slots! (with 2 more, I'd add shield options for WHM so it can also provide at least some mitigation, albeit not as strong as SCH/SGE)

The part that does make me think though, is this: People who want 'more reason to use their GCD heals', wouldn't they HAVE more reason to use those GCD heals, if we removed some of the less interesting OGCD tools to make way for more DPS skills? Like, if we removed Horoscope and Celestial Opposition (yes both) to make room for DPS stuff on AST again, players would have to fill the gap in their healing rotation left by these skills disappearing. So doesn't it stand to reason that, if all the other tools are already minmaxed for the fight's timeline, and can't be moved around to cover these missing tools, the player would have to fill the gap with GCDs, like some players want? But these GCDs would be 'you have to use these, you have no choice' and so they're just 'enforced GCD heals'. Nothing would really change, it'd just be 'Ok, this is the raidwide we dont have anything for, so we GCD this one' and then back to business as usual. This is why I'd prefer to see DPS rotations be broadened, no matter how much they try to enforce 'heal more', once we get past the enforced 'heal more' sections we're back to where we are now, Glare Spam till the next 'enforced GCD heal'. And they can't make the ratio of 'enforced GCD heals' to 'free GCDs to DPS' too skewed towards healing, otherwise people wont be able to keep up, both in skill and in MP costs.

[Shurrikhan]

From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons. Main issue there, is that the two solutions are not compatible, and adding one will only anger the other crowd.

I... don't think that's true at all. Heck, most appear to be asking unambiguously for both.

By way of example, I'd like a few more non-healing GCDs. That doesn't mean I need the game to retain nearly zero reason to use healing GCDs just to support that. You can have greater use for the existing buttons and have a few more buttons atop that, or repurpose a few of the excessive-to-point-of-bloat healing buttons even while adding value to the remainder both in relative and absolute terms.