The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[Renathras]

When someone language starts incorporating language like change "screwing over a job",

Are you replying to me?

You realize I was replying to someone else - a proponent of change - using that wording, right? That is, the person wanting the change was using the "screwing over a job" language. I merely adopted the language they were using to further the discussion. If you're going to attack me over someone else's word choice, maybe you should be attacking them over their word choice first?

I start to think that now we are getting closer to one of the intrinsic reasons or even unconscious reasons that is the basis for their resistance to change.

What part of "Change 75% of the current paradigm" is "resistance to change", exactly?

Even the hint of change and the possibility that some people won't be able to adapt in the highest levels of content is simply not acceptable to them.

No, what's unacceptable to me is taking something away from some people just to make you people happy. It's incredibly selfish to think that changes should only suit you and those who are like you, no matter if they harm others or how much they harm others and their enjoyment.

We even saw this recently applied to healers in PVP (I realize PVP is different, but bear with me). Those people who were used to being dedicated healers in FFXIV either adapted to very different support jobs in the present PVP design, or they likely re-rolled or stopped PVPing. They couldn't continue in the old way of PVPing, all healers were changed.

Actually, this is proof of the value of my proposal:

WHM in PvP plays a lot like it did before. While SGE was significantly changed (doesn't even have a remotely spamable heal), WHM can be played more or less the same as it always has been. You just get more kills now when you pop LB at the right times than you did before when your LB was just a heal. WHM LB is still a heal (and damage reduction) now.

SCH and AST were made into more support healers as well.

WHM play in PvP has the same general number of DPS abilities as PvE. Glarespam, Misery, Seraph, and Purgation in place of Glare, Misery, Dia, and Assize. Even similar CDs/use timers.

The PvP healer change is a "proof of concept" for why my idea is a good one and can work.

I think the lessons to learn from the PvP changes are that not every Job needs to really change much, and that shorter but more frequent and more impactful special abilities are more fun than scripted, longer CD ones. EDIT: Oh, and that not every Job in a role must play at all the same!:ENDEDIT

I'm going to be very honest.

Ultimates are the hardest in the game. Not Savage. Not Extreme.

And, this is also irrelevant: People have access to content now. The answer to the question "Would you be taking away content from them they currently enjoy?" would be "Yes. You would be." You can DEFEND that, but it makes your solution worse from a community and game design perspective of an active MMO. People get far angrier when you take things away from them than they do if you leave them alone or even if you add new things that they can't do.

If someone is doing the 'hardest content in the game', they are expected to know how to play their class.

And right now, they do.

Full stop.

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.

You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

What you don't get here is I'm the one trying to look out for the little guy while also looking out for you guys at the same time. It's why my solution is the good one, because it does give everyone some avenues to play healer where they can enjoy it and the content they clear just as they are clearing today.

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That said, I do agree with you on the learning curve between content needing to be smoothed a bit.

Lastly, please remove your head from your backside before you suffocate,

I'm not going to because I'm not an arse...but you realize this is probably a reportable insult, right?

Also, here's the part where I could say "Same to you, yours is farther up there."

EDIT:

Imagine if one of the healers (probably WHM if some people here got their way) in PVP didn't do any damage to enemies, it was all about keeping your team alive with healing. It'd be horrible to play against, and horrible to play AS, since you'd be target number one to get absolutely disintegrated, CCd out of the game and blown up before you can say 'Why didn't Guard save me'. And it'd mean less burst potential on your team, since you're essentially 4v5 in terms of damage output. The more I think about it the more I hate it why do I do this to myself

Who - literally who - in this thread is arguing for PvE WHMs to only heal allies and do no damage to enemies? (Or PvP ones, for that matter?)

Who has made that proposal? Who has made that argument?

Also, all those things you say would happen...already happen. CC chains against healers to delete them are already a thing. And Guard doesn't work for bupkis.

.

Oh, super random aside, Roe, I wanted to ask you:

Did you play SCH in SB?

Not trying to prove a point, just curious if you did and really enjoyed it.

[ty_taurus]

I did say 'single target healing', AOE stuff like Medica, Lilybell, Assize or Asylum would not be counted. Solace, Cure2, Cure1, Tetra and Bene would be the only things that'd work, maybe Cure3 but only the primary target. And Bene could probably be an exception so it's not just thrown in for damage. I picture it less as a 'do more damage' CD and more like... damage recapture? So if you foresee a part where you have to heal a lot (Brute Justice JWaves or something) with GCDs, you can pop this and get, not Glare level damage per GCD, but at least more than the 0 we currently would have.

The problem I have here is it's not unlike what ShB lilies were, which effectively means it's a system meant to be avoided as much as possible rather than something to look forward to. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's far more satisfying to make healing optimization more about generating resources necessary to access DPS neutral healing, and the concept regarding healing into damage conversion is more about creating a moment where you want to store healing to gain a burst in DPS.

It's not that partial refund systems have no value, because they do, but the vast majority of the game doesn't really support it, and it doesn't feel good to resort to. I don't want to keep adding tools that are niche in hard content and basically unusable everywhere else. We need more stuff that's consistently usable across all content.

[ASkellington]

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.

You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

What you don't get here is I'm the one trying to look out for the little guy while also looking out for you guys at the same time. It's why my solution is the good one, because it does give everyone some avenues to play healer where they can enjoy it and the content they clear just as they are clearing today.
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First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time. Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class". That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added. Over the course of the expansion they'll learn. It isn't like we're asking for this in a midpatch. I had to relearn the seals system and how to use Exaltation, Macrocomos and the stupidness that is the area of Earthly Star.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

[ForsakenRoe]

Right now, they know how to play their class and are able to clear content and enjoy doing so.
You wish to change their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content unless they also abandon the gameplay they prefer for one you prefer.

Again, SE adds new skills in expansion, this 'changes their class so they no longer know their class and can no longer clear content', unless they learn the new rotations. Which they do. This applies to everyone except healers, because apparently we can only handle 'new skill' if it is a direct trait upgrade of the old one. If DPS can adapt to rotation changes, Tanks can adapt to rotation changes, Healers can adapt too.

Pick pretty much any game from... ever. In the vast majority, if someone is not good enough to get past something, a boss fight or hard platforming section or whatever, they can either improve or give up. Crash Bandicoot games don't fill in the bottomless pits if you die to them 3 times, until the whole level is idiotproofed. Elden Ring doesn't reduce damage over and over until bosses do chip damage to you. You either get better stats, get better at the game, or play something else more your skill level. Or in a few cases, you just get indirectly mocked for it, like 'you have unlocked easy mode' in DMC3. And yeh, the 'skill level asked of player' in FFXIV has dropped over the years, and maybe some people got used to that, or don't know anything else. That's a bad thing. We saw this tier, when the healing required was 'a bit higher than usual', people couldn't handle it. Because they're so used to training wheels mode healing, they can't handle it when the game rolls it's sleeves up.

I saw people suggest that they should jack the healing required up so more constant healing is needed. That's how we fix healers, to make them more engaging, make them heal more! Setting aside the fact that this has been shown, by this tier, to be a very controversial and probably role-killing decision, it would also either necessitate reworking 10 years of old content that doesn't fit that model, or just leaving it to rot. Having it as 5 Expansions of old style healing, where players learn that healing moments are few and far between, and DPS time is plentiful, then going into eg: 8.0 story and BAM suddenly everyone's dying around them because 'we're in sustained healing time now, rev up those medicas', what's the point of what they learned in the old content?

I've seen videos and tweets of people with physical disabilities, overcoming those disabilities, clearing Savages and even Ultimates. So if THEY are determined enough to IRL Limit Break and achieve these levels of proficiency, I don't get why FFXIV should have this 'nodding bird' mode where players can just 1111111111111 their way through 'challenge content' like Savage.

I've seen some people say they purposely die in solo instances, so they can select Very Easy mode and obliterate it without challenge. They're within their rights to, but like... Damn, they should just go watch a movie, if they don't want gameplay with their game

The problem I have here is it's not unlike what ShB lilies were, which effectively means it's a system meant to be avoided as much as possible rather than something to look forward to. As a general rule of thumb, I think it's far more satisfying to make healing optimization more about generating resources necessary to access DPS neutral healing, and the concept regarding healing into damage conversion is more about creating a moment where you want to store healing to gain a burst in DPS.

It's not that partial refund systems have no value, because they do, but the vast majority of the game doesn't really support it, and it doesn't feel good to resort to. I don't want to keep adding tools that are niche in hard content and basically unusable everywhere else. We need more stuff that's consistently usable across all content.

If some players got their way, it'd see use in all content, cos apparently they want more HPS required in all content. Which, y'know, this tier showed is a very bad idea. I'd love to see an April Fools version of the game where Sastasha's last boss slapped like the Living Liquid in TEA though. I could keep up with it sure, but the majority would get rolled out like pizza dough, which is why I don't advocate for that solution

First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time. Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class". That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added. Over the course of the expansion they'll learn. It isn't like we're asking for this in a midpatch. I had to relearn the seals system and how to use Exaltation, Macrocomos and the stupidness that is the area of Earthly Star.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

That AST point is super relevant. Going from 4.0 to 5.0, we had to forget all of the effects like +Damage, +Crit, +Defense, and instead relearn the effects completely, as 'Lunar seal, Ranged', 'Lunar Seal, Melee', 'Solar Seal, Ranged', etc. And we did. If we could handle learning those effects changing, we can handle an extra GCD or two in our filler.

[ASkellington]

I've seen some people say they purposely die in solo instances, so they can select Very Easy mode and obliterate it without challenge. They're within their rights to, but like... Damn, they should just go watch a movie, if they don't want gameplay with their game

Off topic but I hate solo duties. Every and all of them. I don't find them fun; I don't find them engaging. Are they hard? No. But if I could skip them would I? Yes. This isn't the gameplay I signed up for. Especially with how healers are currently built, and how it took SE for friggin ever to allow us to change the keybindings (too little too late).

Doubly so because I have alts. It wasn't fun the first go round. It's not fun the second.

[Renathras]

First off, no. You aren't also looking out for us at the same time.

First of all, yes. Yes I am. You folks collectively need to stop telling other people what they do and don't think.

Any and all WHM's who want depth in their class are being told to "go play another class".

And any and all SCHs, ASTs, and SGEs who dont are being told to "go play another class, WHM" under my model. Under yours, they're being told to "go play another game/quit".

Which is the more egregious issue?

That is not fair when they can also be given extra dps buttons with 0 issue.

Except as we've discussed, it wouldn't be "with 0 issue". It would be with major issues, including a lot of healers would be locked out of content they currently play and enjoy as they are playing and enjoying it today.

Second, "you wish to change their class so they no longer how to play and can no longer clear content"? What do you think happens when we go from one expansion to the next? We got new skills added.

You're not asking for a mere addition of a few upgrade skills. When WHM went into EW, they got Lilybell they can use on rare occasions, Aquaveil they can tack onto Benison for tank busters, and their old abilities got upgraded to get new animations. That didn't require relearning the Job. It wasn't a major change to the Job's gameplay.

In ShB, there was...but not as much as you might think. Aero 3 was swapped for Misery, Solace was use case identical to Cure 2 (but preferred), and Rapture to Medica. All other abilities that were changed were streamlined or made simplier, not made more complex and didn't require relearning the Job or stretching one's existing capabilities. In the case of SCH and AST, it was quite the opposite with them being majorly simplified instead.

Earthly Star getting turned into the size of a galaxy isn't something you have to adjust TO.

Adding Lilybell didn't make it where WHM's doing Extreme and Savage before were unable to clear Extreme and Savage in 6.X. You don't even have to use Lilybell to clear ANYthing now. So that's not even close to an apt comparison all around.

Over the course of the expansion they'll learn.

And if they don't?

And if they do but it takes a while?

Oh, right: They won't have access to content they have access to presently.

Are you telling me that if in 7.0 WHM's get Aero 3 and another dps button people can't learn how to use that too? Cause that's what that line is reading as.

No.

I'm telling you the argument "people won't have to change if they don't want to and will not lose anything if they don't" is a lie.

I'm also telling you some people won't.

And I'm further pointing out there's no reason that it must even happen in the first place.

Also, SAM literally had Kaiten removed and were forced to learn their class. It didn't stop people from adapting even if they didn't like it. It won't stop people from learning WHM if they want to.

Kaiten removal made SAM less complex and easier to play - the exact opposite of what you propose.

And many people DID stop playing SAM over it.

Many people who even still play SAM still complain about it. Still want it changed.

Hell, people are still complaining about SB SCH, and that's been gone for, what, 4 years? Cleric Stance and that's be...close to 7+?

Clearly, people don't just get over it and move on.

[ForsakenRoe]

You're not asking for a mere addition of a few upgrade skills. When WHM went into EW, they got Lilybell they can use on rare occasions, Aquaveil they can tack onto Benison for tank busters, and their old abilities got upgraded to get new animations. That didn't require relearning the Job. It wasn't a major change to the Job's gameplay.

In ShB, there was...but not as much as you might think. Aero 3 was swapped for Misery, Solace was use case identical to Cure 2 (but preferred), and Rapture to Medica. All other abilities that were changed were streamlined or made simplier, not made more complex and didn't require relearning the Job or stretching one's existing capabilities. In the case of SCH and AST, it was quite the opposite with them being majorly simplified instead.

Earthly Star getting turned into the size of a galaxy isn't something you have to adjust TO.

Adding Lilybell didn't make it where WHM's doing Extreme and Savage before were unable to clear Extreme and Savage in 6.X. You don't even have to use Lilybell to clear ANYthing now. So that's not even close to an apt comparison all around.

It undermines your point pretty bad when your example 'yeh but they got this and it didn't require relearning' skills are all not-damage except Misery, which is not Aero3 in any way at all. Aero 3 required keeping up 100% of the time or as close as possible. Misery was a consolation prize for the longest time, a 'we are sorry you had to heal, heres a partial refund'. Now it's 'use in raidbuffs, purposely overheal to do so if needed' because it's damage neutral.

Now look at another role, tanks. Blade combo on PLD forced people to unlearn the muscle memory of going for a Goring Blade after their Confiteor, because you'd clip the empowered Valor DOT. Shadowbringer does big damage, but is best held for the 2min window, despite it being right there and ready to use. DoubleDown changed how GNB's build/spend ratio works out, I've heard there's about 3s of leeway with downtime before you fall behind and don't generate enough carts to keep the loop going. WAR keeps getting harder and harder to screw up and people are very vocal about it in other threads.

And no you can't go 'yeh but tanks are meant to do some damage to keep threat'. Replace 'deals X potency damage' with 'generates emnity equal to an attack with X potency damage' and it'd still keep aggro just fine, but without doing damage. Especially considering the 25x or whatever it is multiplier on threat generation that tank stance provides since SHB

[Renathras]

Again, SE adds new skills in expansion,

And as I just replied to ASk, adding a skill is not the same as a complete Job rework. And the complete Job reworks they've done thus far have always made Jobs simplier (MCH, SMN come to mind), not more complex. Even new MNK is an edge case that had some of its complexity removed, and it wasn't an entire role even if you DO want to argue it became more complex, it was just one Job in a role.

unless they learn the new rotations. Which they do. This applies to everyone except healers,

How did PLD's rotation change from ShB to EW? "Oh, I press 1 button 4 times now instead of 1 (Confetti)." What about GNB? "I now press one other big hit button once every 1 minute in my burst window and a oGCD after another button I only use as a resource dump." What about RDM? "Now my finisher works in AOE and for single target, I press the last button of my combo a second time."

Which of these Jobs, "everyone except healers", had to learn a new rotation? With healers, you could say I learned a new rotation, too. WHM has Misery now being damage neutral and Lilies generate in 20 sec instead of 30 sec, so you press Misery more! Look at that, that's a change!

...that's not what you guys are proposing, though.

Pick pretty much any game from... ever. In the vast majority, if someone is not good enough to get past something,

Except they are good enough to do so now.

Imagine if in a Mario game, a player could beat Boswer. But then you "improved" the game where they could only beat Bowser if they did a very specific set of jumps that they never had to do before to beat Bowser. You've now made them "not good enough" at something they were entirely "good enough" to do before.

I saw people suggest that they should jack the healing required up so more constant healing is needed. That's how we fix healers, to make them more engaging, make them heal more!

Well, yes.

It also appeals more to people that play healers because they like healing, and to people who don't have a mindset of muscle memory damage rotations.

It's been shown to be "very controversial" because the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing as they chases parses.

it would also either necessitate reworking 10 years of old content that doesn't fit that model, or just leaving it to rot.

That's what they've done with everything so far. They didn't rework Alexander because healers have more oGCDs now than they did in HW.

Having it as 5 Expansions of old style healing,

Considering ARR and HW aren't the same style of healing as SB, which itself is distinct from ShB and EW, it's at most 2 expansions of "old healing". And they literally did this same thing going from SB to ShB. So it's not like this is a change in any way.

then going into eg: 8.0 story and BAM suddenly everyone's dying around them because 'we're in sustained healing time now, rev up those medicas',

As you're so fond of pointing out - the story and normal content wouldn't require it. Not to mention casting Medica isn't exactly hard for people to adapt to.

what's the point of what they learned in the old content?

The story.

What's the point now?

What did people learn from Prae runs from 3.0-6.0? What do people learn from Sasthasha runs? What are people learning from Sirensong Sea runs?

That AST point is super relevant.

Wait, what?

AST got easier in 5.0. o.O

Like...seriously, the chard effect was just "is it purple" or "is it teal", and the seals you can visibly see on the card. "try to get three" wasn't complicated or more challenging than what was before.

And if AST wants an extra GCD or two in your filler, more power to you. I'm literally arguing that they get that! \o/

EDIT:

It undermines your point pretty bad

(...except it doesn't at all...)

'yeh but they got this and it didn't require relearning' skills are all not-damage except Misery,

It undermines my point that making things simpler is the opposite of making things more complex?

Now look at another role, tanks. Blade combo on PLD forced people to unlearn the muscle memory of going for a Goring Blade after their Confiteor,

...by replacing remembering a 1-2-4 with pressing their 7 button 4 times instead of once. Is that what you're arguing for? "WHM now automatically casts Misery with the Glare button once you get 3 Lilies" would be the equivalent change. Is that what you want? Less complexity?

DoubleDown changed how GNB's build/spend ratio works out,

No it didn't. Played GNB in ShB, play GNB in EW. Instead of 1x Gnashing Fang + 2x Burst Strike, you Double Down + 1x Gnashing Fang, and in both cases you use Gnashing Fang on CD to prevent drift and every 2 mins get extra Burst Strike on the end due to Bloodfest. That's hardly a big change and doesn't change the flow or rotation. It's kind of just an extra busywork button that they could have simply made Sonic Break into and no one would have batted an eye. Also would have helped the Devs with their quest to get rid of DoTs.

I've heard there's about 3s of leeway with downtime before you fall behind and don't generate enough carts to keep the loop going.

GNB is super easy to me because you just lock in the rotation and go. Everything comes off CD at either 30 sec or 60 sec, which is the same it was in ShB. The rotation plays more or less the same, too. Also, there's technically an alternative if you need an extra stack with fewer GCDs just before your burst. AOE combo builds in 1-2 instead of 1-2-3. There are niche cases for this, but it's generally not worth bothering. The solution to that is you remove a Burst Strike when you have that case come up so you have an extra charge.

WAR keeps getting harder and harder to screw up and people are very vocal about it in other threads.

...and yet, it's the most played Tank in every region that isn't Japan. And the one people recommend for new Tanks, alt-Job Tanks (people that play other roles but want to branch out or be an omni filler), etc.

And no you can't go 'yeh but tanks are meant to do some damage to keep threat'.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

Replace 'deals X potency damage' with 'generates emnity equal to an attack with X potency damage' and it'd still keep aggro just fine, but without doing damage.

Sure. Talk to the Devs and I'm sure they'll get right on making that change for you... /sarcasm
(except they might...)

[ForsakenRoe]

And as I just replied to ASk, adding a skill is not the same as a complete Job rework. And the complete Job reworks they've done thus far have always made Jobs simplier (MCH, SMN come to mind), not more complex. Even new MNK is an edge case that had some of its complexity removed, and it wasn't an entire role even if you DO want to argue it became more complex, it was just one Job in a role.

Yeh, I'm so glad that we can tell the SMNs 'dont worry, I know your class got lobotomized in complexity, but it's okay, because BLM still has complexity!', I'm sure they really appreciate it

How did PLD's rotation change from ShB to EW? "Oh, I press 1 button 4 times now instead of 1 (Confetti)." What about GNB? "I now press one other big hit button once every 1 minute in my burst window and a oGCD after another button I only use as a resource dump." What about RDM? "Now my finisher works in AOE and for single target, I press the last button of my combo a second time."

Which of these Jobs, "everyone except healers", had to learn a new rotation?

All of them? If you had to do something, anything, different compared to SHB, that's 'a different rotation'. Even if it's just 'press this button three extra times' in the case of PLD, how many times did people overwrite their Valor DOT? How many people forgot how many Holy Spirits they were spending and screwed themselves out of a Confiteor in SHB?

Except they are good enough to do so now.

Then they'd be able to learn how to press extra buttons. Or if their skill level is such that they clear in like week 12 because of gear difference, they can continue to ignore extra buttons and bruteforce with gear difference, just like now.

Imagine if in a Mario game, a player could beat Boswer. But then you "improved" the game where they could only beat Bowser if they did a very specific set of jumps that they never had to do before to beat Bowser. You've now made them "not good enough" at something they were entirely "good enough" to do before.

Imagine Super Mario Galaxy. Normal Mode is Mario, and Savage is Luigi mode, with his slippery inertia when slowing after releasing the controlstick, faster run speed and higher jump height (meaning potentially overshooting). So yeh, this kinda thing already happened in Mario. Someone who can beat Bowser on Mario Mode might not be able to as Luigi, because he's more unwieldly to control. I struggled on the ice levels as him a bit because of his slippy ground traction combo'd with 'no traction on ice'. So instead of complaining that the game should just give me the reward, I learned Luigi's differences and got good enough to complete his mode too.

It also appeals more to people that play healers because they like healing, and to people who don't have a mindset of muscle memory damage rotations.

How are people knowing when to refresh Dia now? By looking at the duration remaining on the debuff on the boss. So what's stopping them from looking at a second DOT timer, right next to the first one, in the same location on their screen? I don't like muscle memory damage rotations. Healer rotation in SB was not 'muscle memory damage rotation', I wasn't refreshing my DOTs because I could feel in my bones 'ah yes i have done 7 Broils, after this next one 20 seconds will have passed which means I must refresh my DOT', I refreshed them cos I saw the number under the icon said 1.

It's been shown to be "very controversial" because the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing as they chases parses.

It's been shown to be controversial because a lot of the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing because they haven't been needed for so long. Parses have nothing to do with this, competent healer players know when GCDs need to be used, and have no objections to using safety GCD healing in prog/going for a clear.

As you're so fond of pointing out - the story and normal content wouldn't require it. Not to mention casting Medica isn't exactly hard for people to adapt to.

Then we have the Abyssos problem: People would not be prepared for what is actually expected from them, because nothing up til that point has asked it of them. Then when it's suddenly demanded, they assume it's an outlier rather than the new expectation of them, because everything before that didn't ask that of them. In order for the 'more healing required' design to properly work, every piece of story content would need to force the player to heal, to get them used to that. Which would mean story dungeons being an actual threat, which is not necessarily disagreeable to me, but it would be to a lot of the Limsa AFK crew.

The story.
What's the point now?
What did people learn from Prae runs from 3.0-6.0? What do people learn from Sasthasha runs? What are people learning from Sirensong Sea runs?

Depends how big the tank pulls. But Sastasha is a terrible example, as a SCH can literally AFK it, the fairy handles everything at that level. What people learn in most story dungeons is how much damage mobs do, or don't do more accurately. If the change was implemented to force more healing throughput out of players, they'd learn that THAT is the amount of damage mobs do, and therefore how much healing is expected of them.

Wait, what?
AST got easier in 5.0. o.O
Like...seriously, the chard effect was just "is it purple" or "is it teal", and the seals you can visibly see on the card. "try to get three" wasn't complicated or more challenging than what was before.
And if AST wants an extra GCD or two in your filler, more power to you. I'm literally arguing that they get that! \o/

The question isn't if it was easier or harder, the question is 'did things have to be relearned'. And with AST, the whole Card system had to be. You remember old cards right? How they had pairs for their RR effects? Arrow was paired with Spear as 'Double duration'. Now Arrow is paired with Ewer. That new pairing would require relearning. And yeh, you could look at the job gauge to work out the card's effect/seal granted. But, for people like me, who learned to differentiate which card we got by seeing + The Balance in the 'Buffs received' flying text back in HW, 'look at the job gauge' would require... relearning.

And of all the healers to get filler GCDs, I'd actually argue for AST to be last in line for it. It'd still get complexity, but not on it's filler GCDs. The reason it had the more basic of rotations back in older expansions was because it had to, to give breathing room for the Card system. So I'd focus more on the card system to differentiate it. If we gave all of the healers a new filler GCD and a second DOT, they're all just gonna feel samey again. So make WHM bursty, SCH DOTy, AST even more buff gameplay, SGE an actual damage-to-healing healer.

...and yet, it's the most played Tank in every region that isn't Japan. And the one people recommend for new Tanks, alt-Job Tanks (people that play other roles but want to branch out or be an omni filler), etc.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

Sure. Talk to the Devs and I'm sure they'll get right on making that change for you... /sarcasm
(except they might...)

Cut the rest because it's obvious you're missing the point. Whether on purpose or by sheer obliviousness, who knows. But this last bit, where you put /sarcasm. Did I really have to put /s to tell you that, no actually I don't want them to remove all damage from tanks? That it was just an example of a way they COULD make tanks functional, without them having to do damage, thereby allowing the Trinity fetishists to get their rocks off that 'only DPS need to do DPS!'

And yeh, people recommend WAR for new players. If it's hard to screw up, why would you not recommend that one to a new player? The problem isn't that it's hard to screw up, the problem is that even at high end optimization, it's hard to screw up. Having ways to screw up makes it feel rewarding when you don't screw up.

Except they literally are. There's no way to maintain threat in the current game without pressing a damage ability.

With the multiplier on tankstance, the flat threat bonus on Provoke, and Shirk, two tanks in an 8man trial might actually be able to keep threat on the boss by just doing the 'circleshirk'. Maybe I should try testing it tomorrow.

[Renathras]

Yeh, I'm so glad that we can tell the SMNs 'dont worry, I know your class got lobotomized in complexity, but it's okay, because BLM still has complexity!', I'm sure they really appreciate it

Suppose for the sake of argument they "lobotomized" all DPS Jobs but one in a given role. Except one. Vs a world where they lobotomized all Jobs period. Which would you play? And if there was a discussion where 99% of the people were advocating for the lobotomizing, would you not argue "Please just leave me ONE Job! Please!!" And if they told you you were "afraid of change" or "unwilling to adapt" and that you could no longer clear content unless you did, how would you feel? That is, if we reverse the situation from what we are each arguing now and reverse from "more complex" to going "more simple", what would your arguments be? Would you be all for the simplifying? Would you attack anyone advocating that some Jobs be left complex?

All of them? If you had to do something, anything, different compared to SHB, that's 'a different rotation'.

Honestly, that's super broad, but okay. Let's say that when you get three Lilies, your Glare turns into Misery and you cast that. That would be a "change" to your rotation (you would no longer be trying to fit Misery into your burst windows). Would that change satisfy you?

Even if it's just 'press this button three extra times' in the case of PLD, how many times did people overwrite their Valor DOT? How many people forgot how many Holy Spirits they were spending and screwed themselves out of a Confiteor in SHB?

Been playing RDM as one of my DPS since EW hit. I have yet to not press Resolution once.

Then they'd be able to learn how to press extra buttons.

That isn't your argument. Your argument is they would be unchanged from now or wouldn't be losing anything/have to adapt to keep what they already have. Now is your argument they WOULD be losing something? That there would be people suffering under your change?
...because that would be accurate.

Imagine Super Mario Galaxy. Normal Mode is Mario, and Savage is Luigi mode, with his slippery inertia when slowing after releasing the controlstick, faster run speed and higher jump height (meaning potentially overshooting). So yeh, this kinda thing already happened in Mario.

So they made a patch that removed Mario from the game and made Luigi the only play mode in the game?

Oh, wait, no, they didn't do that. They didn't remove the existing game mode at all, did they?

Or are you arguing that initially, Savage mode was Mario also, and then they patched the game to remove Mario as an option for Savage and make it only Luigi now?

...because that didn't happen, either...

How are people knowing when to refresh Dia now?

Dia already sucks. DoTs in general suck. I've said before DoTs are my most un-fun type of gameplay in all of MMOs. The only time they're remotely fun is when they have interactions, like that HoT Druids in WoW have that stacks to three which you keep on the tank and refresh before it falls off or things like Fester that do more damage based on DoTs or PvP Deployment Tactics where the DoT decreases enemy damage, etc.

...in other words, anything that isn't a simple DoT.

Having a second simple DoT that doesn't in any other way interact with your kit is worse than having a single one, which is bad enough.

I don't like muscle memory damage rotations.

Good, that makes two of us. I don't like damage rotations in general. I just do them when there's nothing else to do or if I'm explicitly playing a DPS Job. You know, the red ones. I grudgingly do the blue ones when there aren't enough blue people around and friends need it. When I play a red Job, I try to play the ones that don't have a set rotation, like RDM, or are just braindead simple (and also technically don't have a set rotation) like RDM. When I tank, I like GNB's set rotation because...I don't have to think and can just focus on mechanics and other things going on.

(Honestly, I know this makes me weird, but GNB is the easiest Tank to me - WAR I find myself constantly forgetting Storm's Eye because I don't see that microscopic little debuff fall off. At least with NIN I can see the Job Gauge with the number and it's very visible so easy to see when it's about to run out. Funny how I find GNB and NIN easier than WAR just because of WAR's self-buff not having a good UI representation.)

Healer rotation in SB was not 'muscle memory damage rotation', I wasn't refreshing my DOTs because I could feel in my bones 'ah yes i have done 7 Broils, after this next one 20 seconds will have passed which means I must refresh my DOT', I refreshed them cos I saw the number under the icon said 1.

Good, I'm literally advocating for SB SCH to come back. So what's the problem here?

It's been shown to be controversial because a lot of the raid community has gotten used to not using GCDs for healing because they haven't been needed for so long.

...looks like people are unwilling or unable to adapt, doesn't it? What would happen, I wonder, if we had an expansion where we forced them all to or they'd have to quit...

Parses have nothing to do with this,

If that was so, people wouldn't demand that if we had a simple healer, their more complex ones should be "rewarded" with more damage.

Then we have the Abyssos problem: People would not be prepared for what is actually expected from them,

We've had that problem for literally FFXIV's entire history.

ARR: Pre-Second Coil Savage, healers didn't have to DPS or even have Cleric on their bars (arguably they didn't have to in Coils, but for the sake of argument...)
HW: Healers often didn't DPS in dungeons or use Cleric at all.
SB: Cleric was REMOVED because of the gap between people using it and not using it.

ShB - you know, when they made healers more simple? - was the first expansion where the "training" content actually gave players at all a close to end-game experience, and it didn't even do it then. And EW doesn't, either.

You're arguing for something that has never existed as a reason for not doing a thing.

In order for the 'more healing required' design to properly work, every piece of story content would need to force the player to heal, to get them used to that.

Why?

"every piece of story content" now doesn't require healers to DPS or even use oGCDs.

Depends how big the tank pulls. But Sastasha is a terrible example,

It's the perfect example because...it proves my point. Which is the reason I'd give an example - to prove my point.

What people learn in most story dungeons is how much damage mobs do, or don't do more accurately.

You...are kidding, right? This isn't a serious argument? You're doing that thing again where you're being sarcastic but not putting a /s ?

If you play through Brayflox right now, what does that teach you about how much damage P5S Carbi does or doesn't do?

How does it teach you that when you're killing that add chasing the Goblin around? Is that a mechanic that shows up in Savage raids a lot?

The question isn't if it was easier or harder, the question is 'did things have to be relearned'. And with AST, the whole Card system had to be.

I will agree with you that PART of the question is if things had to be relearned. The other part is was it easy or hard to relearn them.

You aren't asking for healers to be changed to make them easier, so that second question is relevant. It's only not relevant if you're asking for changes to healers...that make them easier/simpler. If you were advocating for healers to be made easier (something I would probably actually argue against), then this would be a valid point.

And of all the healers to get filler GCDs, I'd actually argue for AST to be last in line for it.

Honestly, I kind of agree with this. Thing is, AST is the healer that would most find DoTs useful. If it had, say, 3 DoTs and its damage was designed where they did 75% of it (vs Malific) over a given 30 sec window, this would be better for AST in a way since during their heavy weaves, they'd be penalized less for missing a damage GCD (Malific) since their damage would still be ticking if a majority of it was from their DoTs. Honestly, they should just make Cards GCDs at this point. Make it like Saboteur debuffs in FF13 where they do damage (to the bad guys) when you use them (maybe a pulse around the AST or something that would be damage neutral vs Malific), but something that would ease up on the oGCD octopus keyboarding they have to do now.

...then again, some AST players like that, I suppose...

If we gave all of the healers a new filler GCD and a second DOT, they're all just gonna feel samey again.

I agree. You do realize I've been actively advocating against that, right?

So make WHM bursty, SCH DOTy, AST even more buff gameplay, SGE an actual damage-to-healing healer.

You realize this is ALMOST what I've been advocating for this entire time, right?

Cut the rest because it's obvious you're missing the point.

No, I'm not. And this is the kind of thing you guys are all doing that's so frustrating. You hit an argument you don't like or don't get and you just brush it off.

It's not "missing the point" to note that in a game with Jobs of variable complexity, lots of players gravitate to the simple ones. Some gravitate to the complex ones, too, which is what makes it logical to have some of both in the game to appeal to more people overall. That is literally what my argument is. That's not "missing the point", that's "making a valid argument".

Did I really have to put /s to tell you that, no actually I don't want them to remove all damage from tanks? That it was just an example of a way they COULD make tanks functional, without them having to do damage,

Yes, but the point is that isn't how Tanks work and literally no one is proposing they work that way. It makes no sense to bring up a position that no one is arguing for and that isn't the status quo to argue that it somehow makes your argument stronger. If Tanks DID work that way, you might have an argument, but the obvious counter would be that's how the game is designed and how players are playing and enjoying the Jobs, so there'd be no reason to change it. Thing is, it isn't that way, so that makes it a completely pointless "example". You need an example of how something actually currently is (or was) and was changed instead, I'd think.

Not to mention, unlike the "healers heal" argument, there aren't any MMOs in history where Tanks did zero damage and generated agro that I'm aware of. Can you think of any? Can you think of ONE?

The only game I can think of that did anything at all close to that is I think MAYBE Final Fantasy 13's Sentinel, but even it had Vendetta/Entrench. I can't think of a single MMO or game in history that was designed this way you can use as precedent. Whereas, as we've discussed in this thread, there are many many precedents in both MMOs and single player/small multiplayer games for healers that spent the bulk or all of their time healing. White Mage in FFX-2 doesn't even HAVE an attack spell! (I think Holy is only from using a specific grid card and going through the gates)

In short, there's no parity argument here for you to rely on.

And yeh, people recommend WAR for new players.

Because it's fun and easy and not complex. And many people stick with it as their main.

Sounds like exactly the thing you want to rob healers of.

two tanks in an 8man trial might actually be able to keep threat on the boss by just doing the 'circleshirk'. Maybe I should try testing it tomorrow.

You can try it, but I think the CD would prevent it. Would be an interesting experiment to run, though.