The Problem with Healer Feedback, and requested changes

[ForsakenRoe]

Now, replace Flame Shock with Dia, Lightning Bolt with Glare and Lava Burst with, I dunno, some new very flashy spell that is very satisfying visually.

bring back fluid aura, rename to water, upgrades to banish, problem solved

[AFuzzyMu11in]

There is rather complicated issue with all the demanded healer feedback sumrised. From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons. Main issue there, is that the two solutions are not compatible, and adding one will only anger the other crowd.

If content is designed in way that all the existing healer buttons that are completely useless in 99% of the actual game content are actually necessary in at least half of it - suddenly healing becomes complicated and hard at all levels, and of course, as we all know well, the one to get all the blame for failure even when its not actually their fault, is the healer. Now imagine how much worse it will be when it WILL be the healer's fault. And not to mention that old content will have the issues still, and only new content can be designed that way.

On the other hand, if the approach of 'add more buttons' for DPS rotation is taken... Well, I present a question of 'where the hell does it fit?'. Most healers have 2 full and one about 2/3rds full 12-slot hotbars of spells and abilities. Where the hell do you fit more? You could, say, prune existing skills, since, as said above, they're only really used in savage and extreme content basically... But then what becomes of healers in that content? The healing itself loses complexity.

I think that's the issue of listening to feedback given by people who almost exclusively play high-end stuff like Savage and Extremes. As someone who explicitly has 0 interest in grindstone that is Savage at the moment, I think healers have too many 'do nothing' buttons; but those buttons with their miniscule mitigations and stat adjustments do matter.... but only in Savage and Extreme. So you can't just remove them to make space for things useful and fun-to-use everywhere because of their importance in savage and you can't make them necessary to use everywhere either because that would raise skill floor of healers in general a lot higher, for a role that is the sacrificial goat whenever anything goes wrong.

Honestly, personally, I think current state of healer is 'fine'. Not insanely great, but also not terrible. There are a few skills I literally dont see reasons for existing (Ruin II....) that could be removed with 0 loss, but just not enough to make space for 'real DPS rotation' everyone demands; and I can't imagine any of the excessively loud savage-grinding minority being happy if all those 5% mitigation math abilities are replaced with something more 'practical' on simpler levels of content either. And making healer complex at all stages of the game would just mean less people breaking through the skill floor, which means less fresh people willing to heal, all while old healers who want something that just wont fit will inevitably remain dissatisfied.

Great post you summed up my thoughts exactly

[ForsakenRoe]

Honestly, personally, I think current state of healer is 'fine'. Not insanely great, but also not terrible. There are a few skills I literally dont see reasons for existing (Ruin II....) that could be removed with 0 loss, but just not enough to make space for 'real DPS rotation' everyone demands; and I can't imagine any of the excessively loud savage-grinding minority being happy if all those 5% mitigation math abilities are replaced with something more 'practical' on simpler levels of content either. And making healer complex at all stages of the game would just mean less people breaking through the skill floor, which means less fresh people willing to heal, all while old healers who want something that just wont fit will inevitably remain dissatisfied.

There's parts to this comment (the full one). On one hand I agree, healer mains are pulling in both directions of 'more dps skills' and 'more healing required'. That's just how it is with a divisive topic like this, we're all gonna have different ways we think 'the problem can/should be solved'. Personally I'm on the 'more DPS skills' side, because I do Savage in PF (yes even this tier), I see first hand how hard the bleeds ticked in week 1, and how much they're falling off as a threat since then, because of gear, people getting better at mitigation planning, etc. I also think DPS skills is the way to go, as it leaves the job of 'healers should heal' as it currently is, accessible to new players. Healing and keeping the party alive is the skill floor. By doing DPS at all as a healer, the player is starting to reach for the skill ceiling. So to expand that skill ceiling, we should add to the DPS side, not moving the whole building up by raising the skill floor too.

As an example of removing some healing CDs to make room for DPS stuff, let's say we merged Horoscope with Celestial Opposition, as I suggested in a couple other threads. Horoscope on it's own is kinda sucky, 200p healing unless you GCD heal to empower it. And if you DO spend a GCD to empower it? 400 potency. The heal that empowers it heals for more, at minimum, the same as the OGCD you're trying to power up! Does that really need to be a seperate button, instead of a bonus healing effect tied to another skill as a trait? While some people's DPS additions take a whole rework, others have suggested stuff that works within the confines of what we have now. We don't need DRG's 10button GCD loop here, I'd aim for more something closer to DNC, or RDM. DNC's basic kit is 1-2, with 3 and 4 as procs, and then the complexity is how it builds off of that, with feathers, esprit etc. At it's core, RDM is just 5 GCDs, Stone, Aero, Fire, Thunder, and Jolt for when RNG hates you. Then it builds on that core with a builder/spender system, OGCDs to weave, etc. With healers there's actually MORE room for this, as we can have the 'complexity it builds off into' be healing instead of more damage. We have 'healing feeds into your damage' with WHM lilies, or SGE building Toxicon via E.Diagnosis breaking (though that's a DPS loss that needs looking at, atm), why not look into ways to make 'damage feed into healing'? Again, a certain forum user (cough) made an idea for WHM where Glare, Dia, and a new 15sec CD Banish spell, would charge a gauge, and at 50 gauge the player could use a damage-neutral GCD AOE heal that's nearly Cure3 strong, but without that obscene MP cost.

Some of my ideas, for example (yeh I know self-plug how cringe) would need like, at maximum 4 buttons. For SCH, for example, it'd take 3 slots, to add back 2 extra dots (Miasma and Shadowflare) and a new gauge spender mechanic that interacts with Aetherflow heals. With LB, potion, Summon Eos (sorry Selene) and Repose on a seperate 'utility hotbar' that I click to activate (because they're so rarely used), I'm at 31 binds for SCH. Have Physick upgrade into Adlo, and Lustrate into Excog, that takes me to 29. Delete Aetherflow, make Energy Drain do '300p damage, 1min CD, grants 3 Aetherflow and 2000MP', that makes it 28. Now there's 3 spots to add the dots, gauge spender, one spare slot for LB or potion, and that makes a round 32, the amount of binds on 4 X-Hotbars for controller gamers. There's other ways to get the button count down too that aren't the ones I suggested here too, just these are the ones I'd do. For WHM I'd only need 2 new buttons for DPS, and my hotbars already have 5 spare slots! (with 2 more, I'd add shield options for WHM so it can also provide at least some mitigation, albeit not as strong as SCH/SGE)

The part that does make me think though, is this: People who want 'more reason to use their GCD heals', wouldn't they HAVE more reason to use those GCD heals, if we removed some of the less interesting OGCD tools to make way for more DPS skills? Like, if we removed Horoscope and Celestial Opposition (yes both) to make room for DPS stuff on AST again, players would have to fill the gap in their healing rotation left by these skills disappearing. So doesn't it stand to reason that, if all the other tools are already minmaxed for the fight's timeline, and can't be moved around to cover these missing tools, the player would have to fill the gap with GCDs, like some players want? But these GCDs would be 'you have to use these, you have no choice' and so they're just 'enforced GCD heals'. Nothing would really change, it'd just be 'Ok, this is the raidwide we dont have anything for, so we GCD this one' and then back to business as usual. This is why I'd prefer to see DPS rotations be broadened, no matter how much they try to enforce 'heal more', once we get past the enforced 'heal more' sections we're back to where we are now, Glare Spam till the next 'enforced GCD heal'. And they can't make the ratio of 'enforced GCD heals' to 'free GCDs to DPS' too skewed towards healing, otherwise people wont be able to keep up, both in skill and in MP costs.

[Shurrikhan]

From what I saw there are two things demanded: more buttons and more reasons to push existing buttons. Main issue there, is that the two solutions are not compatible, and adding one will only anger the other crowd.

I... don't think that's true at all. Heck, most appear to be asking unambiguously for both.

By way of example, I'd like a few more non-healing GCDs. That doesn't mean I need the game to retain nearly zero reason to use healing GCDs just to support that. You can have greater use for the existing buttons and have a few more buttons atop that, or repurpose a few of the excessive-to-point-of-bloat healing buttons even while adding value to the remainder both in relative and absolute terms.

[Fendred]

Something relevant to this: Back in ARR 2.0 and 2.1, the healing experience in PUG dungeons was very different when dealing with a scholar versus a white mage. Back at that time, scholar became a hybrid dps/healer due to branching out from the arcanist DPS class. To balance that, it's "cure II" level ability was limited to 3 charges (lustrate). The dynamics between a party with a white mage were different than one with a scholar. A white mage could carry a mediocre party doing wall to wall pulls due to being able to spam cure II if DPS was too slow or the tank didn't have enough mitigation. Scholar was only enough to wall to wall pull if every single person was at the top of their game because their big heals used aetherflow stacks. If everything went right, it was potentially faster than using a white mage due to their dot spam. If things went wrong, the tank would get eaten despite spamming adloq because of how the shield consumption vs cast time worked. The devs pretty much said they didn't like that approach, so they stripped it of DPS abilities and replaced them with more healing abilities to make the healing more "safe." That has pretty much been the philosophy going forward, and if my memory is accurate, the stuff in dungeons today hit lighter comparatively to mobs back in 2.X.

I'd like to know what the dev team's philosophy is on healers today. It looks like they've compartmentalized job abilities with sage in a way we haven't seen in previous expansions.

[Zarkovitch]

The problem of healer hate this tier is they have to heal with gcd heals a bleed and it mitigation checks not a healer checks. Next is the healer class is fighting between healing dpsing due the kit somewhat conflicted. Finally we are running on end game raid tier relies on damage not healing check like the use to have back on old days of ARR. They implimented that on HW and stick with it. The solution is to make GCD damage abilities meanwhile all the healing kit being ogcd. It somewhat how tanks currently plays with the damage and mitigation. This would open the door who can be the drk/gbn of healers (Heavy ogcd or perfectionist/rigid playstyle) and pld/war of healers (less ogcd simple rotation or rigid playstyle but simple ish ogcd). That just a idea for the current meta we are living. I wish there be a other choice to change end raid but nowdays we are stuck on HW era for too long and devs are okay with this era.

[Sebazy]

To balance that, it's "cure II" level ability was limited to 3 charges (lustrate). The dynamics between a party with a white mage were different than one with a scholar. A white mage could carry a mediocre party doing wall to wall pulls due to being able to spam cure II if DPS was too slow or the tank didn't have enough mitigation. Scholar was only enough to wall to wall pull if every single person was at the top of their game because their big heals used aetherflow stacks.

This is categorically untrue though.

People initially thought SCH couldn't solo heal Titan HM either. They were quickly wrong, it was just a case of A) Realising that Selene was garbage and B) Learning how to play properly.

Lustrate wasn't the Cure II replacement, Adlo was, the secret with Adlo was that (at least on EU servers at the time) you couldn't spam it back to back as the shield would never take effect thanks to the horrible latency we had back then. Instead the secret was to alternate Adlo and Physic for the most single target healing potency. Couple that with forced and roused fairy healing spam on the tank and you could exceed WHM's single target healing quite considerably. Soil was also a considerable amount of mitigation for trash, even shadow flare had a small damage reduction element via it's Slow proc.

WHMs advantage in early ARR dungeons was that they didn't need to lean so heavily on their dot damage for AoE packs. Thus in dungeons like WP where you either walled off trash or just melted it in seconds Holy was king.

In leveling dungeons or situations where you weren't overgeared thus trash pulls tended to considerably outlast the holy stun window and in turn, lived long enough for Baned dots and shadow flare to do strong damage, SCH wasn't at anything like the sort of disadvantage that you seem to suggest it was. By HW the repeated Holy nerfs actually had SCH as the better dungeon healer.

The problem of healer hate this tier is they have to heal with gcd heals a bleed and it mitigation checks not a healer checks

The bleeds are a pretty good step in the right direction at least. IMHO if they amp those up a little bit more without going OTT on the initial AoE damage I think it'll be a pretty good time.

[Sebazy]

To specifically clarify a couple of points:

To balance that, it's "cure II" level ability was limited to 3 charges (lustrate).

Cure II was a straight 800 potency heal.
Adlo was 300 potency + 180% as a shield for a total of 840 potency.

If you crit, things get really spicy. A crit Cure II effectively equalled 1200 potency thanks to the 1.5x crit modifier.
For Adlo? You get a 450 potency heal + 810 shield potency, however the crit would also cause your shield to be doubled to 1620 potency for a total of 2070 potency combined.

Keep in mind, this is ontop of the considerable amount of healing from the fairy that could be focused onto a tank with manual embrace spam.

SCH was a monster at healing once you understood it.

If things went wrong, the tank would get eaten despite spamming adloq because of how the shield consumption vs cast time worked.

To confirm, this is exactly why you didn't spam back to back Adlos, you alternated between Physic and Adlo for the best effect. Assuming a worst case situation where you didn't see a single crit, the lost potency from each physic was easily offset by fairy embrace spam and lustrate. Also remember that SCH actually had more healing focused CDs than WHM thanks to the triple whammy of Fey illumination (Remember, Selene was a trap and sucked), Rouse and Sacred Soil.

The devs pretty much said they didn't like that approach, so they stripped it of DPS abilities and replaced them with more healing abilities to make the healing more "safe."

Do you mean the quote where Yoshida said that WHMs were carrying all the healing whilst SCH sat there DPSing? You realise he was instantly proven wrong there right? IMHO the real reason SCH got stripped was because it's damage was wildly out of control on Heavensward trash pulls.

I did video guides on how to do 1000 DPS as a SCH in Nevereeap pre Gordias gear in patch 3.0. If logs didn't have it's full premade requirement those demo runs would have landed me a top 100 DPS spot for the entire expansion. I was doing as much DPS in primal gear at 3.0 as some DPS jobs were doing by 3.5 in vastly better gear.

That was a bit of a problem

[ForsakenRoe]

i will note, cure2 and adlo potencies listed above are EW post 84 trait. IIRC the original potencies back then were Cure2 at 700, and Adlo at 675 (300, plus 125% as shield). meaning yes, WHM was stronger IF and ONLY IF, the adlo doesnt crit, the adlo shield is not overwritten (pretty sure most people could work out 'ah i should alternate physick and adlo so the shield has time to be broken'), and that 100% of the heal from cure2 was 'healing' and not 'overheal'.

also, what did you do if your cure2 was not enough to keep up as WHM? divine seal? after that, you wiped because you had nothing else. what did you do if adlospam wasnt enough to keep up (and the shield was breaking so fast that backtoback adlos were the way to go)? well you had lustrate, sacred soil, whispering dawn, fey illumination, rouse to mix in. even now, there are some dungeons that feel bad to do as WHM because of it's comparative lack of tools, like Aurum Vale we STILL dont have medica2 there. But SGE can heal through that with (probably) zero GCDs used because haha kardia and physis very good very fun

[Sebazy]

i will note, cure2 and adlo potencies listed above are EW post 84 trait.

Oops yeah, good spot, I was pulling the potencies from the Gamerescape history rather than digging through patch notes, for whatever reason the traits are wrong even on the historical listings.

Ty for the correction.

AST is another example where it has a power house kit at low levels and absolutely outstrips WHM in earlier leveling dungeons.