Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Saranade]

TLDR:

This game is now ruined. The amount of third party tools even just mentioned in this thread is mind boggling. It's either can't beat them, join them, or never enjoy Savage content, literally ever. It's quite a shame. If Yoshi P is worried about people unsubscribing, he should be worried about people like myself who do not use third party programs and never will.

Edit: Not to mention - *some* of these tools are "free" - at what expense are they collecting your data? Opsec fail!

[Kazhar]

TLDR:

This game is now ruined. The amount of third party tools even just mentioned in this thread is mind boggling. It's either can't beat them, join them, or never enjoy Savage content, literally ever. It's quite a shame. If Yoshi P is worried about people unsubscribing, he should be worried about people like myself who do not use third party programs and never will.

Edit: Not to mention - *some* of these tools are "free" - at what expense are they collecting your data? Opsec fail!

Please explain how the mere existence of third party tools prevents you from clearing Savage content.
It is not required, even the most die-hard parse fanatics will never force you to install third party tools. I know plenty of players who use none of them but still engage in Ultimate content.
You don't need ACT installed to play well. And as long as you play your job correctly, you will a get good parse.
If you don't want to start savage content because people will judge you on your performance... I don't think you're fit for that environnement anyway, even if the tools didn't exist.

[SaberMaxwell]

Not to mention - *some* of these tools are "free" - at what expense are they collecting your data? Opsec fail!

SE has no responsibility for anything their clients might put on their own computers. Can't protect a client who doesn't want protection, therefore opsec "out of scope."

That's not even to go into "never enjoy Savage content", assuming ofc that Savage cannot be enjoyed without 3pt which it absolutely can be.

[Saranade]

Please explain how the mere existence of third party tools prevents you from clearing Savage content.

Because the groups who recruit for it frequently refer to fflogs to check your DPS, and if you're not listed or not up to par, then they kick you.
You're ignoring the fact that programs like ACT actually "call out" enemy boss rotations, and where to stand. If this is not a crutch, IDK what is.

If you don't want to start savage content because people will judge you on your performance... I don't think you're fit for that environnement anyway, even if the tools didn't exist

How are people "judging me on my performance" exactly... without third party tools, the only judgment I would make is "you keep making the same mistake".

[Ralphe2449]

It is not required, even the most die-hard parse fanatics will never force you to install third party tools.

I dont personally know about that but i wouldnt be surprised if some did exist knowing the "high end" crowd.
You are right that it aint required, but when did that stop tryhards from acting as if it is mandatory.

In games were addons are allowed, you join an average even casual mythic guild and you ll be greeted by a list of addons you MUST download according to their rules which I always had to argue against cuz of bs addons like gtfo whose only purpose was to scream at blind people who dont seem to be able to visually see the mechanics so they need a horn sound when a mechanic is happening which more annoying and distracting than the actual damn mechanic that the devs have already given enough visual info about.

Then of course you have the more tryhard guilds where such things arent even included in the rules because they have become so normalized they wouldnt comprehend someone not using such hand holding addons because "how could you not want an advantage, it is optimal to use"

The fact that SE doesnt allow such addons is the only thing that has stopped this degenerate mentality for taking over all savage statics/groups and even then I wouldnt be surprised if some wouldnt demand it privately.

Which is yet another reason why addons should never be allowed and the current system works, the community degenerates very fast once they are allowed to do that.

[Kazhar]

Because the groups who recruit for it frequently refer to fflogs to check your DPS, and if you're not listed or not up to par, then they kick you.

Why do you want to join groups who clearly does not fit your playstyle? Would it be better if they kicked you after a week or two because your DPS is clearly not up to par?
EDIT: Also there are plenty of casual statics who couldn't care less of your logs, if you'd tried you'd know.

You're ignoring the fact that programs like ACT actually "call out" enemy boss rotations, and where to stand. If this is not a crutch, IDK what is.

You clearly overestimate the number of people who uses those tools. Most people who install ACT do it for the logs and nothing else.

How are people "judging me on my performance" exactly... without third party tools, the only judgment I would make is "you keep making the same mistake".

So your ideal high-end experience is to drag your team down and for no one to know it was you? I am glad fflogs filters you out then.

[AmpelioB]

Because the groups who recruit for it frequently refer to fflogs to check your DPS, and if you're not listed or not up to par, then they kick you.
You're ignoring the fact that programs like ACT actually "call out" enemy boss rotations, and where to stand. If this is not a crutch, IDK what is.

How are people "judging me on my performance" exactly... without third party tools, the only judgment I would make is "you keep making the same mistake".

ACT is not really what do callouts for you, ACt only reads you battle logs and thats it, a boss pattern doesnt appear on the battle log. and honestly, the people you are mentioning, while they do exist, they are mostly elitists and they comprehend about 1% of the game. maybe you are just not looking for groups on your on skillplay.

There's a lot to judge without third-party tools, if you actually knows how the game/classes works out, if someone is not mitigating, has not food or potting when its clear you need those, when they fail to keep buffs up, which right now is pretty easy now that all jobs are on 2 minutes window, these are just of few things you can judge without TPTs, maybe you just aren't very familiar with the game.

[Saranade]

I dont personally know about that but i wouldnt be surprised if some did exist knowing the "high end" crowd.
You are right that it aint required, but when did that stop tryhards from acting as if it is mandatory.

In games were addons are allowed, you join an average even casual mythic guild and you ll be greeted by a list of addons you MUST download according to their rules which I always had to argue against cuz of bs addons like gtfo whose only purpose was to scream at blind people who dont seem to be able to visually see the mechanics so they need a horn sound when a mechanic is happening which more annoying and distracting than the actual damn mechanic that the devs have already given enough visual info about.

Then of course you have the more tryhard guilds where such things arent even included in the rules because they have become so normalized they wouldnt comprehend someone not using such hand holding addons because "how could you not want an advantage, it is optimal to use"

The fact that SE doesnt allow such addons is the only thing that has stopped this degenerate mentality for taking over all savage statics/groups and even then I wouldnt be surprised if some wouldnt demand it privately.

Which is yet another reason why addons should never be allowed and the current system works, the community degenerates very fast once they are allowed to do that.

This! Thank you.

[LianaThorne]

Because the groups who recruit for it frequently refer to fflogs to check your DPS, and if you're not listed or not up to par, then they kick you.
You're ignoring the fact that programs like ACT actually "call out" enemy boss rotations, and where to stand. If this is not a crutch, IDK what is.

Frequently is an exaggeration as it's usually just the hardcore statics that care about having top parses (teams that want to clear within Day 1 or 2 of a tier dropping for example). I've never experienced a casual or even midcore static ask for logs prior to joining and I've seen my fair share of both over the years.

Also ACT does not equal Cactbot, which is what you're actually referring to.

[AmpelioB]

I dont personally know about that but i wouldnt be surprised if some did exist knowing the "high end" crowd.
You are right that it aint required, but when did that stop tryhards from acting as if it is mandatory.

In games were addons are allowed, you join an average even casual mythic guild and you ll be greeted by a list of addons you MUST download according to their rules which I always had to argue against cuz of bs addons like gtfo whose only purpose was to scream at blind people who dont seem to be able to visually see the mechanics so they need a horn sound when a mechanic is happening which more annoying and distracting than the actual damn mechanic that the devs have already given enough visual info about.

Then of course you have the more tryhard guilds where such things arent even included in the rules because they have become so normalized they wouldnt comprehend someone not using such hand holding addons because "how could you not want an advantage, it is optimal to use"

you are just detailing WoW, not "games were addons are allowed".

EDIT: I know this because I played other "games were addons are allowed" from various aspects and most game that are are very close to the community (unlike WoW with you used as point) and would either implement it in game like Terraria or even make things like Skins sellable, like Warframe that not only do both but also give part of community skins to the creator.