Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Midareyukki]

Alright then! I can post again, wee \o/

Because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just tossing the Terms of Service out like a shield to hide behind, and are actually willing to think. I updated my previous post, but the gist of it is "This is how the game typically operates; when someone is kicked, it's silently" and that "it's a bit naive to expect every elitist to be a moustache twirling monster who tries to rub salt in the wound."

Yeah, I don't get it. I had some time to think, and I don't really understand why you wanted that.

I'm not tossing out the ToS like a shield? It's the thing that Square works under when applying punishments and analyzing cases. So, as Atelier told Azuri that if you use parses as justification to kick someone from a PF party you get penalty, and FireMage asked for evidence of that, I pointed out that it's what Square themselves say. When someone is kicked, it's usually silently. But in the case someone's an utter idiot and decides to talk about logs on party chat, then yes, you can. And if you somehow gain evidence that these people were indeed parsing the runs and kicked you out for it, then you can report them. That is all. Whether this is how the game works or not is beyond me, because for what Square's concerned, you just can't do that, period. Or, maybe, consider this. The reason as to why the game is the way you mentioned is because if you do these things, you get banned. Which is what FireMage was questioning. People don't talk about ACT parses and kick people out over them because doing so would lead to a penalty.
I don't see what sort of shield you think I'm using. If anything, I wasn't using the ToS as a thing to defend myself, because I had nothing to defend. I even opened the post with something like "Does this help?". And I did concede that I didn't understand some stuff because of how vague they sounded. If anything, if I went on the defensive like I am now, I would have tried to argue against it.
Plus, how does you asking me that would yield any answer to you that I'm wearing the ToS as a shield. As you've seen, I'm not, I didn't even use the ToS as an argument. And even if I had, it doesn't really counter me bringing up the ToS to show that "using Parses to kick people out of PF is considered an offence"? Whether it happens covertly or not is up to anyone's guess. In fact didn't we already establish that most people use mods and stuff without telling anyone, since it's all mostly client side. So, naturally, realistically, very few people are caught with them on. But sometimes lapses happen.
Some people are stupid enough to discuss them in the middle of Limsa plaza xD
The whole point of what I wrote was to illustrate Atelier's post. "In the even that it happens", then yes. Whether it happens or not, no, but I doubt we'd need any justification for saying "You get punished for using someone's parses against them". Because that IS what would happen.
.w. was I meant to provide actual cases where people got banned for using parses against others? If that's the case, I personally don't know any. But someone out there likely might.
I just find the shield thing a bit odd. I wasn't a part of the conversation, I was just pointing out "well, yes, at least according to the terms of service Square operates under".

We still have that problem even without Parsing. People tend to forget the "Skip soar or disband" mentality and its spawns. You still see X number of wipes = disband. People don't need a meter to weed out supposed bad players. You still have people misusing the threat meter as a sign of bad dps. People will still find a way to single out with or without dps meters.

Legitimate question. From my limited and admittedly rather poor experience, I've come across 3 cases: Players who are pressing buttons, just the absolute wrong ones (like people hard misaligning their 2m buffs). Parties who advertise themselves as "3rd phase" but end up wiping 30s into the instance. And some parties where it looks like everything's going as it should at a baseline, but we end up still not clearing and nobody understands why until one person who was logging the fight points out a person underperforming.

On the 1st and 2nd cases it's obvious what the problem is. But on the 3rd case, people were largely unaware that the person wasn't doing their best and "needed" the parses to figure that out. Now, giving myself some margin of error because *cough* casual amateur, do you guys who tend to raid more often also experience this third case? Do you manage to quickly pinpoint who's underperforming on the spot, or does it still take you guys a bit of digging (even if it's just through replay and battle logs, you know, something sober as to not rat out anyone >.>;; ) to figure out who's not pulling their weight?

[Tiramu]

Imagine acting like you can carry anyone. I love how you're cherry picking other people's mistakes as mine. Garbage posting as usual

The irony is that you want open logging, and now find your opinion being dismissed because your logs are the wrong colour, despite having cleared Savage content and therefore likely being a capable player. Open logging would make this kind of thing worse.

[Nekkowe]

Legitimate question. From my limited and admittedly rather poor experience, I've come across 3 cases: Players who are pressing buttons, just the absolute wrong ones (like people hard misaligning their 2m buffs). Parties who advertise themselves as "3rd phase" but end up wiping 30s into the instance. And some parties where it looks like everything's going as it should at a baseline, but we end up still not clearing and nobody understands why until one person who was logging the fight points out a person underperforming.

On the 1st and 2nd cases it's obvious what the problem is. But on the 3rd case, people were largely unaware that the person wasn't doing their best and "needed" the parses to figure that out. Now, giving myself some margin of error because *cough* casual amateur, do you guys who tend to raid more often also experience this third case? Do you manage to quickly pinpoint who's underperforming on the spot, or does it still take you guys a bit of digging (even if it's just through replay and battle logs, you know, something sober as to not rat out anyone >.>;; ) to figure out who's not pulling their weight?

Outside of more experienced party members offering that person advice for specific mechanics, that third case is something I pretty much never come across.
It's incredibly poor form, as well. By now, I think most PF savage groups understand the fallout of poisoning the atmosphere like that - and of putting third party software in the line of fire in the process.

In my experience, it's much less common for any one person to get named and shamed on the spot than it is for the PF group to agree "we don't have enough damage", completely disband, and then quietly partially reform.
And even that's only after the other, more typical reasons are ruled out - like needing to clean up mechanics, or not everyone using food/pots yet, both of which are visible without logs.

[FireMage]

I'm not cherry picking anything lol.

You shouldn't talk about kicking out bad apples and wanting to be that type of toxic player that Yoshi-P explicitly wants to avoid by not having a parser in game while leaving your fflogs completely open with mostly mediocre parse logs.

I'm simply pointing out the irony in your posts.

You are though. Do tell me how a healer not healing because they thought melee LB3 would kill Agdistis is my fault. Do inform me how taking a tankbuster on Hegemone is my fault. Garbage poster that can't read logs is garbage posting, who would have guessed?

[FireMage]

The irony is that you want open logging, and now find your opinion being dismissed because your logs are the wrong colour, despite having cleared Savage content and therefore likely being a capable player. Open logging would make this kind of thing worse.

Open logging is fine, it's garbage posters/players like Ransu who don't know how to read a log that are the issue. It's always the bads

[Nekkowe]

It might be time for someone to lock this thread.

[VelKallor]

Read through the entire thread, had a good laugh at the comment that WOW is "doing well".

Their new expac was promising..until Blizzard starting messing with the alpha, nerfing things left and right.

What some of you dont get is this: the parsing culture is driving people away, add to that the m plus toxicity, Blizzards insane reliance on raid or die , note that again, in their new expac, they are TOTALLY disinterested on any activity outside of raiding m plus and pvp...the consistent lack of any real content outside of those three is still a sore point..and dont tell me Zereth Mortis was anything other than another daily set of chores...the zone was literally a way of timegating how to speak to NPC's..it is and was a joke.

Ive had people rubbish my comments on how parsers are misused and abused, the amount of toxicity , obscene abusive language, often close to foaming at the mouth rage, if someone doesnt do xyz dps and EVEN THEN they demand MORE..to the point of utter lunacy.

Lastly, the TOS isnt a shield, its a set of rules and terms of conduct you ALL AGREED TO, so any caviling on what it says is irrelevant. You agreed to it. You are bound by it.

It's always the bads

Folks, exhibit one on the mentality I have been discussing. "This person is bad so I am entitled to use logs and dps meters to scream abuse at them, swear at them, post their dps logs to shame them and humiliate them."

Not saying you do this Firemage, but this is what it leads to.

Thats the kind of attitude parsers used ingame foster.

There are no "bads" and quite frankly, to me a bad player is one who thinks they are superior..dps meters can be..and have been used..as an excuse or justification for conduct, which, tbh, they would never dare to do in public.

Think on that a moment...would you DARE to scream abuse at someone in a street or workplace? I dont think so, seeing as whoever does that wont like the consequences.

That happens in WOW every single day, and it is NOT what we want here, it is also the kind of conduct Yoshi and his team do not want.

I agree with his stance entirely on the matter. Dont care what the "mob" wants, the "mob" doesnt run this game.

Mordion is there for those who think otherwise.

It might be time for someone to lock this thread.

I second that.

[FireMage]

Imagine actually saying that "bads" don't exist

[SaberMaxwell]

Alright then! I can post again, wee \o/

Cool! But please, if you're gonna do huge posts like this, space them better, it's legitimately hard for me to parse through the sea of letters and despite proper paragraphing, the lack of additional space given by OF's poor formatting really doesn't help. EDIT: Just wanted to make it clear this isn't a dig at you; the OF formatting is garbage-tier lol

I'm not tossing out the ToS like a shield?

If you're sure, why is this a question?

It is well known that "difference in playstyle" is a valid reason to kick somebody, which someone like FireMage is perfectly within their rights to read as "because they didn't parse high." That's not the only thing that falls under that of course, but it does lead to the DADT effect of "You can kick for poor performance, you just can't explicitly say that's why you're doing it."

Coming out and dropping ToS, and then going further to drop tangential at best ToS even further, then rolling back onto the defense as people naturally wonder what your intent is, and a valid interpretation of intentions there would be dropping ToS as an attempt at ending the conversation. You'll note that my goal was to give you benefit of the doubt though, and I ask you to reread and understand what benefit of the doubt it, because I've seen you on the forums and believe you not to be the kind of person who would attempt that as a tactic, ergo I pressed you on what you'd posted and why you posted it.

It's the thing that Square works under when applying punishments and analyzing cases. So, as Atelier told Azuri that if you use parses as justification to kick someone from a PF party you get penalty, and FireMage asked for evidence of that, I pointed out that it's what Square themselves say.

Except in this case, if parses are used as an explanation, it will be implicitly under "difference of playstyles." Besides which, you cannot be coerced to PF with anyone for any reason. If you join my PF and I dislike your name, glam, FC name, preferred minion, lack of mount collection, maybe I dislike that you don't use discord, maybe I dislike you on discord, maybe I dislike people you associate with discord, twitter, facebook, or anything at all, and kick you from it for any of that? Fair game. Though by letter of law you are correct; for some reason, you CAN be coerced to play with people who you dislike the logs of.

When someone is kicked, it's usually silently. But in the case someone's an utter idiot and decides to talk about logs on party chat, then yes, you can. And if you somehow gain evidence that these people were indeed parsing the runs and kicked you out for it, then you can report them. That is all.

"And if you somehow gain evidence..." If you somehow gain evidence, I'm honestly more worried about you and thinking maybe someone should do something about you hacking into people's computers to obtain that evidence, because that's the only way you'd get anything definitive.

Whether this is how the game works or not is beyond me, because for what Square's concerned, you just can't do that, period.

No, as far as Square's concerned, you get banned for harassment first. Don't harass, period. Third party tool usage comes later, if at all, they're happy leaving it in the grey zone.

Or, maybe, consider this. The reason as to why the game is the way you mentioned is because if you do these things, you get banned.

Yeah, closer to JP blacklisting you behind your back type of toxicity and "GCBTW" toxicity than classic WoW and LoL toxicity, but I'd argue still toxic nonetheless.

People don't talk about ACT parses and kick people out over them because doing so would lead to a penalty.

People absolutely kick, boot, disband, and refuse to play with people over ACT and FFLogs. It's not super present in PF itself because it's a take-what-you-can-get atmosphere, but it happens and it happens under the title of "difference in playstyle."

I don't see what sort of shield you think I'm using. If anything, I wasn't using the ToS as a thing to defend myself, because I had nothing to defend. I even opened the post with something like "Does this help?". And I did concede that I didn't understand some stuff because of how vague they sounded. If anything, if I went on the defensive like I am now, I would have tried to argue against it.

Plus, how does you asking me that would yield any answer to you that I'm wearing the ToS as a shield. As you've seen, I'm not, I didn't even use the ToS as an argument. And even if I had, it doesn't really counter me bringing up the ToS to show that "using Parses to kick people out of PF is considered an offence"?

I invite you again to research what the benefit of the doubt is because it's clear you misunderstood me.

Whether it happens covertly or not is up to anyone's guess. In fact didn't we already establish that most people use mods and stuff without telling anyone, since it's all mostly client side. So, naturally, realistically, very few people are caught with them on. But sometimes lapses happen.

Some people are stupid enough to discuss them in the middle of Limsa plaza xD

See, here's some more benefit of the doubt. I believe you aren't meaning to say here that ToS is good only for catching the low hanging fruit that accidentally outs themselves, even if that's the logical conclusion of your statement.

The whole point of what I wrote was to illustrate Atelier's post. "In the even that it happens", then yes. Whether it happens or not, no, but I doubt we'd need any justification for saying "You get punished for using someone's parses against them". Because that IS what would happen.

If that was the point of your post, you didn't do a spectacular job. You missed entirely the fact that, under the clause of "difference in playstyle," people very much CAN reject people based on parses.

.w. was I meant to provide actual cases where people got banned for using parses against others? If that's the case, I personally don't know any. But someone out there likely might.

Likewise am I suppose to provide every case of a silent kick or a kick under "difference in playstyle" being judged legitimate by a GM through absence of action?

I just find the shield thing a bit odd. I wasn't a part of the conversation, I was just pointing out "well, yes, at least according to the terms of service Square operates under".

You simmered over the shield thing so long you missed the benefit of the doubt thing. Above in italics is how ToS can be used as a shield. In bold is why I don't think that was your intent even if you very much came across that way.

[SannaR]

Imagine actually saying that "bads" don't exist

Yikes. Did you have to open that can of worms? If this thread doesn't get nuked I won't be surprised that it'll be in the 30s page wise when I come and look at the forums in the morning. Cause I'll eat my invisible straw hat if this doesn't start a spicy debate on what exactly a bad is or isn't.