Yoshi-P "definitive" answer on third party tools from today's 14 hour stream

[Azuri]

That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

[Tiramu]

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

I mean, look at your reply to me. Because I dont like that FFLogs collects data without consent and would prefer XIV to be a game where casuals and hardcore players can find value, you assume Im some toxic casual who wants to piss all over elite raiders. Which is one hell of a jump missing this huge middleground in between.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

[Azuri]

You can use FC's and statics for curating players. What you suggest would gatekeep party finder that locks high end content out only for the most elite players, and shuts the door on casuals, semi-casuals, those who cant invest their lives into a game like many elite raiders want, and leads to outright toxicity and grown adults acting like children.

If you want that as the standard then fine, there are lots of MMO's that are like that, and as we see from WoW the end result of that is harmful both to players and the game itself.

What I see from your argument is wanting to take the whole cake for yourself and gatekeep all high end content; which is exactly what would happen if PF were to require parse results.

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

[Tiramu]

But where would all the casual players go then? Why won't they make their own PFs to progress the fights together in a chill and fluffly atmosphere where no one ever gets angry at someone being a little slow on the uptake?

They would use PF like they already do. If you want a more curated environment then you can use your FC or create a static. Whats the problem with that?

As for "chill and fluffy", why do you need to be so condescending. People dont want chill and fluffy, they dont want toxic. Some of the meltdowns I've seen people have in random PF groups, and in games like WoW, are frankly embarassing.

[Atelier-Bagur]

That is a surprisingly self-reflective take. Nice.
That being said, if we were to allow what you say nobody would ever get into the elite club as you'd be expected to know everything immediately and be perfect which I find kinda self-defeating. Why play a game I'm already perfect in? The middle ground we have right now works well enough. I don't need that LoL BS or whatever similar game.

Also, you're completely leaving out the possibility that a casual/hardcore gamer might come around to the other's perspective. How many have started as a casual only to start raiding? How many had life happen to them and now just want to take in a little bit slower (without completely leaving the raiding scene)? The current system is a good compromise (which doesn't mean I agree with everything, like the state of healers or SE balancing jobs into the ground).

Exactly, why fix something that already works? Rather we need is to improve upon the design choice for both audiences not further alienate them

[Atelier-Bagur]

All I am saying is that the current system can and should just move from the weird gray area and be accepted as an objective reality. There should be nothing wrong with looking at someones logs and concluding that you would rather not play with them. For whatever reason. No matter how much Yoshi wants it, he shouldn't dicatate who we party with.

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

[Azuri]

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

See, this is why we fundamentally will never agree. And why I think we should just be given the tools to build a nice "wall" between each other so we can both enjoy the game in our separate "worlds".

[Saraide]

There is nothing wrong you say but checking logs as a requirement is already wrong. Putting focus on a players damage numbers is not nor should it ever be the be all end all judgement of their skill

it's not the end judgement of their skill. You can have orange on every fight in the game, if you mess up constantly and prevent the group from clearing, you should get kicked. We are forced to care about the damage numbers because damage is our win condition in every fight.

[Estariel]

And that's exactly the problem with parsers: all you see are numbers but not what really happened during the fight, maybe it's not Jimmy holding back.

Maybe the best of the best dd had the high numbers because they stood in every bad stuff and the low dps healer needed to heal them instead of dealing damage.

Maybe the high DPS healer just threw rocks instead of Esuna debuffs.

And don't get me started on addons like DBM: I spent weeks raiding as a pug healer in WOW and no one knew I wasn't using it. They noticed when we got to a boss I've never fought with my guild, so of course I didn't know what to do and suddenly I needed an addon instead of learning the fight?!

[SannaR]

And that's exactly the problem with parsers: all you see are numbers but not what really happened during the fight, maybe it's not Jimmy holding back.

Maybe the best of the best dd had the high numbers because they stood in every bad stuff and the low dps healer needed to heal them instead of dealing damage.

Maybe the high DPS healer just threw rocks instead of Esuna debuffs.

And don't get me started on addons like DBM: I spent weeks raiding as a pug healer in WOW and no one knew I wasn't using it. They noticed when we got to a boss I've never fought with my guild, so of course I didn't know what to do and suddenly I needed an addon instead of learning the fight?!

You can figure that out though from the use of the one parser people use. It will give you that information on where and how the damage dealt is coming from along with where and how it's being dealt. You can still learn the fights though as unless you use an add on that shows you where to stand you won't know where to go if you and your group is going in blind.