Anyone else holding out hope for Machinist?

[Dyvid]

Yes SE, please nuke the job once more and bring back its identity. I don't care in what form. Stop alienating veterans by destroying job identities. You can change the gameplay and abilities as much as you want, but stop nuking job identities. This also goes for roles like rphys. You're just promoting pushing away veterans from what they enjoyed, especially when you're not providing actual replacements elsewhere.

Sadly MCH problems are linked to a Battle System that isn't working anymore. Back in HW 3.XX days PRDPS focus was DPS and restoring TP/MP along with some Raid Buff goodies. 4.XX saw the scale change with introduction of PURE DPS and Buff DPS along with the removal of TP/MP restore so RPDPS started it's free fall.

Now we have a Role, which has DPS taxed, that has lost it's identity. We have a system revolving around a 60s / 120s synergy that people dislike and we have a job that's only goal is to DPS yet is severely penalized for it. I'm not sure who is running the Battle Design team but you can tell Yoshi-P has spent the last few years working on FFXVI along with other duties. MCH is a symptom of a much larger issue in my opinion.

[UkcsAlias]

We have a system revolving around a 60s / 120s synergy that people dislike and we have a job that's only goal is to DPS yet is severely penalized for it.

Note that this 60/120s rotation is the reason that role is being penalized. Such strict synergies are causing the problem for anything that doesnt follow it, and is very vulnerable towards strict metas forming. In a healthy state, you would have several synergy forming methods.

Lets for example consider 5 CD durations: 30,40,45,60,90. In this case there are several moments of overlap. Some which have better synergies with others. Obviously the 30 has most overlap as it will combine well with 4 of them, But even the 40 which conflicts quite a bit with 30, still has good overlap with the others and can form other synergies. But the times for ideal overlaps can vary quite a bit. (3x30 will match well with 2x45, allowing a 90s meta giving 3 times a perfect overlap, and the 40s one semi overlap losing out about 10% efficiency there on 1 ability). This is the sort of thing that is important. Too much being attached to 60, will simply only enable synergies that rely on that, hence 2mins.
Interupt phases like cutscene sections are very good breakers here, since if you were 100s into the wait for your 120s ability, that cutscene is a major potency loss vs a 90s rotation that might have been able to dish out just a bit more.. But as damage rotations get optimized over time, this might in turn shift again (as now the cutscene might start only 80s in, causing both rotations to lose out anyway). A role that isnt depending on such long rotations might be good especialy for those interupt moments, since during that 80s wait, they didnt lose out, which in turn is another way to get around it.

The less they make CD times form synergies, the better the synergy system is. As from that point on they require coordination formed by a team are instead often forced by players rather than the game. The players can then focus on their optimal synergy time for the highest burst potential. And it doesnt matter if this is 60, 80, 90, 100, 110 or 120s. Because that time is based on the classes chosen, and while some combos might work better in some cases, in other fights that same combo might have some major downsides.

[Azuri]

Note that this 60/120s rotation is the reason that role is being penalized. Such strict synergies are causing the problem for anything that doesnt follow it, and is very vulnerable towards strict metas forming. In a healthy state, you would have several synergy forming methods.

Lets for example consider 5 CD durations: 30,40,45,60,90. In this case there are several moments of overlap. Some which have better synergies with others. Obviously the 30 has most overlap as it will combine well with 4 of them, But even the 40 which conflicts quite a bit with 30, still has good overlap with the others and can form other synergies. But the times for ideal overlaps can vary quite a bit. (3x30 will match well with 2x45, allowing a 90s meta giving 3 times a perfect overlap, and the 40s one semi overlap losing out about 10% efficiency there on 1 ability). This is the sort of thing that is important. Too much being attached to 60, will simply only enable synergies that rely on that, hence 2mins.
Interupt phases like cutscene sections are very good breakers here, since if you were 100s into the wait for your 120s ability, that cutscene is a major potency loss vs a 90s rotation that might have been able to dish out just a bit more.. But as damage rotations get optimized over time, this might in turn shift again (as now the cutscene might start only 80s in, causing both rotations to lose out anyway). A role that isnt depending on such long rotations might be good especialy for those interupt moments, since during that 80s wait, they didnt lose out, which in turn is another way to get around it.

The less they make CD times form synergies, the better the synergy system is. As from that point on they require coordination formed by a team are instead often forced by players rather than the game. The players can then focus on their optimal synergy time for the highest burst potential. And it doesnt matter if this is 60, 80, 90, 100, 110 or 120s. Because that time is based on the classes chosen, and while some combos might work better in some cases, in other fights that same combo might have some major downsides.

Bull. Shit.

In ShB you'd always hear talk about the mythical 3 minute comp with DRG/MNK/BLM/BRD and WAR and how good it could be. Guess what? No one ever run it. SAM with DNC were the default pick and every job that didn't play in their two minute window was inferior. Endwalker didn't change anything about how players approach buff windows. It just allowed every job to be on equal footing.

This is not even talking how ass some fights were for 90 seconds jobs. SE very obviously uses pacing as a balancing factor by drifting more mechanically heavy moments in/out two minute windows for harder/easier fights. At least now it affects all jobs evenly without unfairly making life easier for the lucky ones.

[Valence]

Sadly MCH problems are linked to a Battle System that isn't working anymore. Back in HW 3.XX days PRDPS focus was DPS and restoring TP/MP along with some Raid Buff goodies. 4.XX saw the scale change with introduction of PURE DPS and Buff DPS along with the removal of TP/MP restore so RPDPS started it's free fall.

Now we have a Role, which has DPS taxed, that has lost it's identity. We have a system revolving around a 60s / 120s synergy that people dislike and we have a job that's only goal is to DPS yet is severely penalized for it. I'm not sure who is running the Battle Design team but you can tell Yoshi-P has spent the last few years working on FFXVI along with other duties. MCH is a symptom of a much larger issue in my opinion.

I agree with the whole point, which is something I've talked again and again literally everywhere, but you're getting your expansions confused. It wasn't 4.XX but ShB 5.XX that nuked everything.

[Darkpaw]

I agree with the whole point, which is something I've talked again and again literally everywhere, but you're getting your expansions confused. It wasn't 4.XX but ShB 5.XX that nuked everything.

Hard disagree on that last part 4.xx absolutely slaughtered mch.. and it has never recovered.

I dont know what memory people have of Stormblood mch but unless you had near perfect ping you were not going to have a good time trying to find any team for high end content willing to take you as a mch.

Most people asked you to go bard, go red mage, literally any other dps but mch in stormblood, you could never guarantee your optimal rotation because you were absolutely reliant on server ticks for your heat.

It was awful, it hasn’t ever recovered from that. And now p.ranged has no defined space other than “support dps” and mch has no place in it because it has no support skills. It’s meant to do the most damage out of the p.rng, but i doubt it even tickles what bards and dnc’s are doing.

[Absurdity]

Hard disagree on that last part 4.xx absolutely slaughtered mch.. and it has never recovered.

I dont know what memory people have of Stormblood mch but unless you had near perfect ping you were not going to have a good time trying to find any team for high end content willing to take you as a mch.

Most people asked you to go bard, go red mage, literally any other dps but mch in stormblood, you could never guarantee your optimal rotation because you were absolutely reliant on server ticks for your heat.

It was awful, it hasn’t ever recovered from that. And now p.ranged has no defined space other than “support dps” and mch has no place in it because it has no support skills. It’s meant to do the most damage out of the p.rng, but i doubt it even tickles what bards and dnc’s are doing.

Machinist in Stormblood was bad, but with good ping you were absolutely competitive when it came to dps. Was it fun? Absolutely not, playing MCH in savage was awful and way too much work compared to playing bard, but it was possible to be up there with the likes of BLM, SAM, SMN and MNK.

After Stormblood and the ShB MCH rework however you didn't even have the chance to perform well anymore. The job is just as ping reliant as ever (even if the Flamethrower servertick nonsense is gone) but now you also deal laughable dps for a job that brings nothing else to the table and that won't change no matter how perfectly you play.

[george357]

their are 18 jobs in the game pick one to play until they fix mch its not the end of the world.

[Darkpaw]

their are 18 jobs in the game pick one to play until they fix mch its not the end of the world.

Cute, but if any job has a reason to be upset and continue to bring it up in this game it is MCH, because it has been so long that it has been broken one way or another.

Most of us have started playing other jobs but we all want to go back to our job and we want the next “fix” to ACTUALLY FIX OUR JOB.

No other job has had their critiques ignored for 3 flipping expansions. Mch needs to be fixed and it deserves to be fixed properly

[CKNovel]

their are 18 jobs in the game pick one to play until they fix mch its not the end of the world.

You clearly miss the point.
People are already playing other jobs than MCH.

The problem is that this scenario has been going on since Stormblood.
SQEX overbuffed then abandoned the MCH during Stormblood, never updating its clunky mechanics.
Then, threw a rework for Shadowbringers fixing a good portion of clunky mechanics and abandoned the MCH once again.

Endwalker update felt like "Here's a shotgun and flying pizzas as a chain saw, now buzz off".
The DPS buffs are welcome but doesn't make the MCH as valuable as DNC/BRD and it seems the balance team can't understand it.

For 3 MCH there's 4 BLM, that's how the MCH playerbase has diminished because of a rework that isn't satisfying or rewarding.

[Valence]

Hard disagree on that last part 4.xx absolutely slaughtered mch.. and it has never recovered.

I dont know what memory people have of Stormblood mch but unless you had near perfect ping you were not going to have a good time trying to find any team for high end content willing to take you as a mch.

Most people asked you to go bard, go red mage, literally any other dps but mch in stormblood, you could never guarantee your optimal rotation because you were absolutely reliant on server ticks for your heat.

It was awful, it hasn’t ever recovered from that. And now p.ranged has no defined space other than “support dps” and mch has no place in it because it has no support skills. It’s meant to do the most damage out of the p.rng, but i doubt it even tickles what bards and dnc’s are doing.

They were speaking about party resource support and MP. This was nuked in shb.

Also current mch isn't better on ping for the very reason that sb mch, while extremely sensitive to bad ping, could be worked around with high ping openers, and the current one cannot. It also has more than twice the amount of rapid fire, where you are still forced to weave at least a little not to overcap. Openers are also packed with mandatory weaving.