Real talk; the lack of Job-specific STORY content is really hurting my excitement...

[Atelier-Bagur]

I actually dont mind nor care about the job having to be all about the traditional expectations to what a Paladin is......well let me back up, I dont care that it doesnt fully illustrate that since a lot of other job stories that have better written stories dont much care about exploring the intracacies of the class's design in full detail. Its always has been about the characters and their stories that relate to what their class is in conjunction to the setting they're in. Since the Sultana and the Sultansworn are heavily tied to the game's lore, it makes sense the Paladin order comes from there since they're a group in charge of defending both their liege and her people. So diving within the power struggle between the Monetarists and the Sultansworn was a well placed setting to weave in stories about what it takes to serve and protect the people even when you're faced with adversity.

The problem with the Paladin story is that it started out ok with it doing just that or at least expand on the established story between those groups but then come HW Paladin story and after the reveal, it just destroyed everything it was setting itself up. Thats why Paladin story was actually disappointing. You felt like you reaaaally had your time both in-game and out of game wasted. Again, I wish the theme of the Paladin story went more with keeping it engaging and simple by focusing about the Sultansworn and their duties and further strengthen the bond between the Uldan people and the Sultana. And have Papashan be the main focus too, he's such a nice character who's very underused.

[Simple_Barghest]

I actually dont mind nor care about the job having to be all about the traditional expectations to what a Paladin is......well let me back up, I dont care that it doesnt fully illustrate that since a lot of other job stories that have better written stories dont much care about exploring the intricacies of the class's design in full detail. Its always has been about the characters and their stories that relate to what their class is in conjunction to the setting they're in.

A fair enough result to come to. Like I said in my edit reason, I've had far too much time to ruminate about Paladin.

Since the Sultana and the Sultansworn are heavily tied to the game's lore, it makes sense the Paladin order comes from there since they're a group in charge of defending both their liege and her people.

Where do we see them do this?
Where, outside of Papashan, do we see the Sultansworn actually putting on their big-boy pants and coming out in-force to be The Sultan(a)'s Bodyguards they're purported to be?
The closest it comes to that is in the Ul'dah starting MSQ, where we have more Jenlyns-esque examples of the position (Owyne) struggling to recover an artifact of the Sultana's rather than serving the position of 'being her shield' or 'protecting Ul'dah's subjects.' The latter example is frequently more-often seen by Gladiators and the Brass Blades.
This, imo, is where Paladin is fundamentally flawed from the beginning, and its fundamental class identity never really manifested like the others. We're told that the Paladin is the Shield of the Sultan(a). And we're given... very few examples of what this means. When Paladin got abilities from its job crystal, they didn't feel like techniques of the Sultansworn. They feel like abilities from another class concept that were ported over. We never see a genuine, actual Paladin do Paladin things, and act as a Paladin could act. Paladin has defensive buffs that play into the idea of "bodyguard" and "guardianship" (specifically Cover, Divine Veil, Intervention, and Passage of Arms), but this never accurately comes to pass.
Edit: Okay there's one more example of a Sultansworn I can think of. Bartholomew, the guy who stands in front of the door and you have to talk to to get to multiple cutscenes in the Fragrant Chamber. But tha's... that's all Barty does. He exists to be the door-guy.

and it's great you bring up the Monetarist struggle because:

So diving within the power struggle between the Monetarists and the Sultansworn was a well placed setting to weave in stories about what it takes to serve and protect the people even when you're faced with adversity.

The problem with the Paladin story is that it started out ok with it doing just that or at least expand on the established story between those groups but then come HW Paladin story and after the reveal, it just destroyed everything it was setting itself up. Thats why Paladin story was actually disappointing. You felt like you reaaaally had your time both in-game and out of game wasted. Again, I wish the theme of the Paladin story went more with keeping it engaging and simple by focusing about the Sultansworn and their duties and further strengthen the bond between the Uldan people and the Sultana. And have Papashan be the main focus too, he's such a nice character who's very underused.

Consider the current writing direction of the Syndicate, specifically members of the Monetarists. I've had to argue this elsewhere, but most of the still-surviving members either have gotten absurd amounts of whitewashing (Lolorito), are fundamentally supposed to be good people (Godbert Manderville), or receive the FFXIV-patented 'Sympathetic Backstory' or 'They're Not Actually Too Bad Don't Villainize' treatment (Fyrgeiss, Dewlala). In essence, they've effectively killed off the conflict that's supposed to drive the Sultansworn storyline - faction-splitting and corruption driven by the Syndicate, and the efforts to purge it from their ranks. And this in turn absolutely blasts a cannon into the chest of Paladin story development.

also yeah just. HW Paladin becoming Bootleg Sith "Rule of Two" helped nobody do anything anywhere.

tl;dr I've done entirely too much thinking about Paladin, because I like my shield-bearing knights in shining armor and the way they were played out here is [pain].

[Terin]

I agree entirely. I'm just filled with dread that if we were to get more Job questlines, that means Paladin would get more Job quests.


Part of the problem imho is that Paladin's thematics just... Do not fit into Ul'dah culture whatsoever.
Several of PLD's abilities either outright namedrop or reference Halone, 'holy light,' and general concepts such as chivalry and guardianship. In addition, the concept we're introduced to of 'The Free Paladin' is a roaming, chivalrous hero protecting the commonfolk and being their shield against the forces of evil and foul banditry.
Comparatively, Ul'dah's patron deity is Nald'thal, who is generally a darker and more fiery-aspect entity that represents Death & Taxes. And on top of that Ul'dah's culture is the epitome of cutthroat, murderous capitalism, to the point that it's still a relevant plot beat that multiple members of the Syndicate were actively trading with Garlemald until Garlemald imploded. And despite trying to thrust the aforementioned concepts of 'Free Paladin work' onto us, we're given to start with a floundering mess of bodyguards as our job representatives (who are very bad at their job, like atrociously so - except for Papashan, who I agree should've been 100% more relevant at all levels) who are easily given the run-around and corrupted by the aforementioned Syndicate.

The entire job is thematically at odds with the city it's positioned in, and sprouts from a starting class that's basically perfect for the city it's positioned in - Gladiator, the flashy and flamboyant fighter in the bloodsands, fighting for cash and glory and the love of the audience.
Who doesn't actually get any Gladiatorial showings until, ironically, Paladin's 60-70 quests.

oh lord it's just a mess.

I just had to reply to this, because it's just such an excellent post. Not meaning to throw shade or anything, but you're absolutely right about "Paladins" being pretty at-odds with Ul'dah, and even the "Gladiator" class from which the job stems.

Perhaps it's time to cut ties with Ul'dah for the Paladin quests, and instead explore the notion of connecting with some long-forgetting spirit of "Light" or Holy power? Maybe have the Paladin traveling to Garlemald, truly becoming a hero to a people who have little and even less faith in anything left. Really play into the idea of them being "a light in the darkness". Where the Holy See of Ishgard was always steeped in all the potential corruption of a powerful church, maybe exploring the idea of the good a single person can do, inspiring people a bit more. Perhaps connecting it to Ul'dah, only in having your character showcasing the importance of being a Paladin, maybe even having one of the Monetarists involved in the story, who after seeing the good you're able to do, away from the callous nature of Ul'dah, starts to have a change of heart?

I dunno, it seems like there is plenty of potential for the Paladin to have a good, emotional, powerful story. But you're absolutely right, it could stand to distance itself a bit from the Gladiator pit and Ul'dah, and focus more on the "Holy Knight" angle.

[DiaDeem]

Excluding Papashan, Captain Fufulupa has more honor in one thumb than the entire Sultansworm combined.

[Burmecia]

cant see why they couldnt make couple of fun sidequests for X job only. job quest, job side quest?
i'd love that. for those who care of job identity and, ya know, roleplaying that might be super welcome content.
they wouldnt need to unlock anything like abilities, at most some glamour accessory maybe t go with the AF gear,

[Byron-Blackfyre]

the shadowbringer role quests, in my humble opinion, was a better storyline than some of the job quests i.e paladin. level 60-70 paladin job quest felt like an extension of gladiator. it didn't really add any new paladin lore.

[Atelier-Bagur]

the shadowbringer role quests, in my humble opinion, was a better storyline than some of the job quests i.e paladin. level 60-70 paladin job quest felt like an extension of gladiator. it didn't really add any new paladin lore.

At least Aldis and Mylla were much better characters than Jenlyns and Solkzagyl (hurts me to even say that since I like every roegadyn character in this game)

[PyurBlue]

Would anyone else be interested in seeing job quests baked into MSQ instead of being their own thing? By this I mean some parts of the MSQ quest line will change depending on your job. It would help add variety to the MSQ while also acknowledging your character's main role. It might also be less difficult to implement into the game as some of the branching quest lines could share content to an extent.

[TheMightyMollusk]

That's kind of how the role quests already work, though. Aside from not being mandatory, at least in Endwalker. Shadowbringers forces you to finish at least one of the four to continue through the Tempest.

[VentVanitas]

I'll just repeat what I said earlier in the thread: I don't really care much for job quests because it doesn't need to be the only outlet for job lore, which is what I would like to see more of in general, especially for jobs like Paladin or Sage. Lapis Manalis was a step in the right direction as Reaper was incredibly lacking prior to it. (Wouldn't hurt to have more though please.)