General Healer Discussion [The Echo Chamber]

[ty_taurus]

RDM also has a raidbuff, an occasionally useful heal, a raid mitigation, and a gameplay loop that's actually interesting to optimize and isn't 111111111111111. Hence my point that you pay for utility with less damage. Except that's turned on its head with the healer role, where the one that sucks gets MAYBE one bit of utility, but the Wonder Twins get to have all of the utility, highest damage, and the luxury of bitching about it if they aren't literally always and forever the best at everything because being the best at everything is their "identity".

It's not that fun > balance. It's that AST and SCH define fun as meaning "I'm more powerful than my competition in every single way and now it's fun again!", then when you go "hey wait a minute", you get "you're just obsessed with numbers and parsing and not FUN like I am!"

It's maddening. You can't be the best at everything.

ETA: I also find myself unswayed by the constant argumentum ad populum about WHM. I don't think you'll like the end of the road that starts with "but WHM is so popular, so clearly numbers don't mean anything". Are you arguing that white mage, white mage is fun to play or well-designed? Get ready to keep your 1111111111 gameplay then, because that's soooooo fun.

To expand more on the topic of WHM, I of course imply that with the added utility, its gameplay would also be reworked. And since raise utility is more situational than Expedient and Macrocosmos, it should in theory justify allowing WHM to be stronger, have more engaging gameplay, and feel on par with AST and SCH overall. Of course, simply talking about what utility WHM should or shouldn't have ultimately doesn't matter if its still barred from actual growth. The healers need to be discussed as a whole. Fixing one part on any of them isn't enough when the entire jobs need reevaluations.

[ForsakenRoe]

Yeh WHM being 'the most played' should not discount it from getting actual growth, and I'm not sure who's suggesting that but it sure as heck isn't me, for one. WHM should get more than 11111111 and it'd be ludicrous to suggest this isnt the case. The problem is, what can we give to WHM, when the majority of the playerbase value only damage? I'm sure there's plenty of RDM players in Savage who would happily throw Magick Barrier away to get even 1% more damage, and VerRaise for another 1%. And we can't just give WHM 'more damage than AST' because AST players will ask the justified question 'why play AST, which takes so much more effort, only to get outDPS'd by WHM?' Which is why I think, as long as WHM's within a certain performance of AST (2% at 99th would be acceptable to me), it's ok. We'll never get it perfectly matched vs AST because comp differences, crit variance, etc.

Perhaps the solution lies with something like what I proposed, and hear me out on this. SCH and SGE don't want to cast GCD shields. AST doesn't want to with Neutral Sect either. WHM doesn't even HAVE GCD shields. WHM's current 'identity' according to some is 'safety healer in prog', pointing to things like J-Waves, Aionogonia/Dominion, etc, and Cure 3. SO, if we had a way to apply shields as WHM, as I posed by making it a Lily spender, WHM would have the advantage of being the only healer that can add 'damage neutral GCD shields'. They'd be weaker than the Barrier Healer's shields, and gated by Lilies, so the Barrier Healers would still have more ready access to GCD shielding, similar to how Barrier Healers can apply Regens with a CD, but Pures can apply it via GCD. This way, WHM could add to RDPS by cutting a damage-losing GCD from the SCH or SGE, changing it to a damage neutral Lily spend, refunded by Misery. Contrast this to AST, who, if they wanted to shield, it'd require a 2min CD and losing a Malefic to apply the shield. Thus, WHM would have it's 'safety' identity strengthened, and given a clear advantage over not just AST, but also SCH and SGE. Couple all this with the other stuff I suggested, and WHM would have multiple ways to keep it's DPS up even during downtime. Is 'can keep up it's DPS during downtime' an identity?

'Oh this just makes the damage bigger for all the healers EXCEPT WHM', it's raising the RDPS of the group. The fact it'd be attributed to the not-WHM healer is none of my concern. If it were such a massive concern, FFLogs would implement a formula to siphon the gained damage from the non-WHM to the WHM for the GCD they gained because of WHM saving them that GCD. If they can implement formulae to decide 'actually the adds in P3S don't count to your parse' or 'actually the double damage buff in final phase of P8 doesn't count', there's a formula that would work for this.

[MintnHoney]

Just a passing thought:
I don't know why AST ended up with it, but, other than the barely tacked-on card symbol interaction, I feel like Astrodyne was meant to be a WHM self-buff.

[ASkellington]

Just a passing thought:
I don't know why AST ended up with it, but, other than the barely tacked-on card symbol interaction, I feel like Astrodyne was meant to be a WHM self-buff.

Astrodyne, I'm pretty sure, was created because the devs can't take "no the seals system is a failure" as an answer. The only way Astrodyne could have worked is again if 2 of the same seal meant a different buff and Astrodyne was how you played said buff for the whole party instead of just yourself (or some synergy with Synastry where you could give it to yourself and another person). As it stands, I want the damn thing gone. The devs had 2 expansions to make the seals system a worthy buffing system and failed to do so. I don't want a third expansion of it.

[Shurrikhan]

Astrodyne, I'm pretty sure, was created because the devs can't take "no the seals system is a failure" as an answer. The only way Astrodyne could have worked is again if 2 of the same seal meant a different buff and Astrodyne was how you played said buff for the whole party instead of just yourself (or some synergy with Synastry where you could give it to yourself and another person). As it stands, I want the damn thing gone. The devs had 2 expansions to make the seals system a worthy buffing system and failed to do so. I don't want a third expansion of it.

The funny thing is that the version most compatible with Seals was the Stormblood Cards system with minor adjustments...

• buffs to Spread or replacing that by giving AST a second charge on Draw,
• make NuSpear not an outright waste (was just half the effect of Balance, or worse if the target had auto-crits),
• making Royal Road an actively cast retroactive effect on your most recent Card cast instead of forcing it on the next Card, thus making it bankable,
• balanced Royal Road interactions instead of Expand being alternating the only viable or the least viable use in full and light party content, respectively -- including by uncapping the Card effects that can be active on a player at time so Extension could actually be worth something -- and
• a buffed Divination.

There, the Seals would have been a balancing factor that drew ASTs to find use for otherwise less directly desirable cards like Bole and Ewer so that the original Card system wouldn't devolve into <its typical pessimistic-yet-largely-accurate portrayal, Expanded Balance fishing>.

[ForsakenRoe]

Just a passing thought:
I don't know why AST ended up with it, but, other than the barely tacked-on card symbol interaction, I feel like Astrodyne was meant to be a WHM self-buff.

With how bad the MP economy was for WHM at the start of EW, I can 100% see that. A mini burst phase every 60s via WHM-dyne and a proper one at 2min with WHM-dyne and Presence of Mind lining up would give WHM a 'big burst identity' though and we can't have that. Also yeh, as Skel says, the devs can't seem to accept something is a failure and go back to the drawing board. It'd take a real, like, 'Cast Time BRD' level of outcry to get them to pay attention but I don't think AST has enough of a playerbase to create that kind of stir compared to BRD. At this point I guess we just have to resign to hoping (cos that has worked so well so far) that the 7.0 rework is good and not just, idk 'cards are now GCDs but the effect is 10% instead of 6%'

Actually thinking about it, there are times when the devs do relent and accept they messed up class design, but when they do it seems to be 'baby with the bathwater'. DRK is too spammy cos of DA? throw it all out, delete DA completely instead of just toning down how much stuff in the kit consumes it, make MP management be 'dont press any buttons that consume MP until the 2min burst' instead of the active thing it was before, and make the kit into WAR2 because everyone likes WAR. SMN pets are janky, throw it all out, delete dots delete pets now it's a stance-rotation thing like BRD with one of the simplest DPS rotations imagineable, I'd be ok with this one if it had happened in SB when a rotation like this would have been fairly even with other classes, and we'd have had 2 more expansions to build on it, but instead we have it here and it's just kinda empty compared to the other DPS. MCH overheat is hard to line up with wildfire because it's automatic, maybe we should have a button to manually trigger overheat NOPE delete it all, rework it into a gadgeteer class (this part was a good idea), also remove the vuln effect from Turret Promotion, we don't want MCH thinking it can climb out of last place on damage (this part was not a good idea)

At this rate, BRD will lose it's DOTs too, GNB will get a skill that lets it use Burst Strike 3 times in a row (as if Bloodfest isnt already that skill), DRG will always have Life active (since they currently always have Blood active) and SAM will have Senei removed, as it is a kenki spender that is not Shinten. Oh yeh, and RDM will have one more step added to its finisher combo to make it even harder to get 2 of them inside of Embolden.

[Shurrikhan]

Actually thinking about it, there are times when the devs do relent and accept they messed up class design, but when they do it seems to be 'baby with the bathwater'. DRK is too spammy cos of DA? throw it all out, delete DA completely instead of just toning down how much stuff in the kit consumes it, make MP management be 'dont press any buttons that consume MP until the 2min burst' instead of the active thing it was before, and make the kit into WAR2 because everyone likes WAR.

Yeah, it does sadly often seem to alternate between either extreme of throwing a tantrum, with "No, you're wrong; our design is great" on one hand and "Well, I guess we'll just have to get rid of EvERyTHiNG then!!" on the other. Feels like when they're finally not getting monkey-trapped, we're still getting the Monkey's Paw.

[Semirhage]

And we can't just give WHM 'more damage than AST' because AST players will ask the justified question 'why play AST, which takes so much more effort, only to get outDPS'd by WHM?' Which is why I think, as long as WHM's within a certain performance of AST (2% at 99th would be acceptable to me), it's ok. We'll never get it perfectly matched vs AST because comp differences, crit variance, etc.

Because then you have to ask the converse of that question, which I already asked in Stormblood: "Why does AST get to bring everything to the table while WHM brings nothing?" Again. AST's "identity" can't be "good at everything", WHM's can't be "AST, but minus the cards and worse in every way even if it's by smaller percentages in some places". The only rule that makes AST forever-meta is the circular set of made-up rules that AST must - always be more complex -> always have more utility -> always be stronger because it works harder -> always be more complex -> always have more utility...

I'm just not terrifically wowed by the rehashed themes of Stormblood discussions regarding WHM's proposed niche. We spent basically a whole expansion circling around "You could get AOE shields!....but weaker than the shield healers, definitely weaker because never ever forget that Scholar needs to be more powerful than you in every single way. We definitely want to bring WHM's fun and performance factor up! Yes yes, definitely brought up. But under the good healers. Definitely still under them. Number one rule for any WHM suggestions is bring them up.... but NO buffs, that's our exclusive domain. And you can't do more damage than us; we're more complex and therefore better by definition. And also give us debuffs on our AOEs too. It's only 'homogenization' when WHM gets things other than vanilla heals and damage. It's 'good kit expansion' if we raid WHM for the last few remaining exclusive features it has."

Shadowbringers design was the logical direction for the healer landscape in a world where WHM is boxed in like that. The devs -agreed- with this overly simplistic set of design constraints. I maintain that we're stuck in this rut until this BS gets reevaluated.

If your job is only allowed to bring one thing to the table, it'd better be really good at it. BLM gets this right. If you only bring one thing to the table, but your competition shouts "but I work harder for it! Also I get to bring this other dragon hoard pile of utility that are MY exclusive domain that you can't have access to. Whoops, this confluence of mandatory premises defines me as the best at everything, fancy that!", that's also incredibly unfair.

[ForsakenRoe]

I'm just not terrifically wowed by the rehashed themes of Stormblood discussions regarding WHM's proposed niche. We spent basically a whole expansion circling around "You could get AOE shields!....but weaker than the shield healers, definitely weaker because never ever forget that Scholar needs to be more powerful than you in every single way. We definitely want to bring WHM's fun and performance factor up! Yes yes, definitely brought up. But under the good healers. Definitely still under them. Number one rule for any WHM suggestions is bring them up.... but NO buffs, that's our exclusive domain. And you can't do more damage than us; we're more complex and therefore better by definition. And also give us debuffs on our AOEs too. It's only 'homogenization' when WHM gets things other than vanilla heals and damage. It's 'good kit expansion' if we raid WHM for the last few remaining exclusive features it has."

Which is why, when I suggested WHM getting the ability to apply 'shields but they're weaker than SCH', they're tied to lilies. This gives a clearly defined choice to be made by the healers: Use weaker, but damage neutral WHM shielding, or use stronger SCH shielding, but it costs a GCD. In prog this would be part of optimisation, which moves can we get away with using the weaker shields, but in speedruns WHM would retain that desirability. IDK why SCH does more damage than WHM either, since 'press Chain' isn't exactly complicated. It shows the real issue is raidbuffs and the variance they cause between 'ok group' and '100% all poggers gamers group'. Who do the devs balance around? I'm guessing by the numbers, somewhere about halfway between, but this leads to the epic 100% percentile gamers getting higher output from the raidbuff classes than the non-raidbuff classes and we're back here again. I don't think anyone wants SB WHM back in it's entirety, when people say they want SB healers back they are usually referring to the DPS kit complexity. They want Aero 3 and Cleric Stance (role action version) back, probably.

Anyone who cries 'homogenization' at this point hasn't been looking at the game for the past few years. We're already way past the point where that word is a valid defense to rally against a certain change. Certain parts of kits need to be homogenized to complete the duty, EG healer's basic healing kit, tank mitigation kits, etc. We don't distinguish between DRK and GNB by their mitigation, we do it by their rotation. WHM getting a raidbuff won't be 'homogenization' because it's identity in older games included 'buffing allies' with stuff like Faith, Bravery, heck Libra has been a White Magic for ages, so let's just let WHM have Libra. Since in old games it shows you the enemy's elemental resistances and weaknesses, so you can 'directly hit' those weaknesses and exploit them, just make it a DHit debuff on the enemy to be the mirror to Chain Stratagem. Or add Faith and Bravery to WHM, as single target Magic/Phys damage buffs to rotate across the party, then even the 'I play healer to heal not to damage' players can contribute to doing damage, even if indirectly. 'WHM with raidbuff that's homogenization' yeh so I'm making it un-homogenized, this one will be a 1min raidbuff, while SCH and AST can stay at 2min. There, now it's different

Besides, so many AST players swapped to WHM for prog this tier, I assume it has something going for it over AST to cause this mass migration. If AST was 'better in every single way' as you say, why would all these hardcore players actively grief their team by swapping to the worse healer? As for buffs, I wouldn't care either way if WHM got one or not, doing more damage because 'more complex therefore better by definition', I agree with the 'more complex' part, but 'better by definition' sounds more high-and-mighty than I'd aim for. 'Deserve to have a slightly higher damage ceiling, with the caveat of having a way way lower damage floor if we cock up' is more what I was thinking, if you have a pog team you can do maybe 2% better than a WHM, but if you have a poo team, you will do like 6% LESS than the WHM. What do you mean with debuffs on AOEs, you mean like the Holy stun? Something tells me that adding an Attack Speed Slow effect to AOW isn't going to suddenly change how desireable SCH vs SGE is in content. If they want to add debuffs like that, fine whatever, if they don't, fine whatever. It'll make as much difference as the Bind effect on Hyoton.

Let's imagine WHM outdoes AST by, lets say 3% at 99th percentile. All the 'dragon hoard of utility' AST brings either matters enough to overthrow the fact it's behind WHM on damage, or doesn't matter and WHM is the 'dominant healer' because 'more damage'. It doesn't work both ways, and that's why the problem persists. If it was as simple as adding more utilities to WHM, it'd have been done by now, but it's not gonna help it, because if they don't contribute damage, they might as well not exist. We as a playerbase could be given a choice: 2% more damage than AST, or a new skill 'Arise', a 2min CD which resurrects players without Weakness. And while a lot of players would think 'damn no Weakness that sounds crazy', there's a non-zero number of players who don't care about that, because the only thing that matters is their damage. Prog doesn't exist to them as 'content', or if it does, it's a mere obstacle to the real game: competing for parses. And a 'no-weakness' res, while completely OP in prog, does nothing in log runs. It's a weird situation for balance.

A question (or two): What justification is there for WHM to do more damage than AST, or if not, what % in front/behind of AST should WHM be, assuming identical skill of all players in the party? And if it's not damage that WHM will beat AST on in this hypothetical 'fixed' balance for the future, what would you suggest WHM get, to close the gap with AST?

[AnotherPerson]

Yeh WHM being 'the most played' should not discount it from getting actual growth, and I'm not sure who's suggesting that but it sure as heck isn't me, for one. WHM should get more than 11111111 and it'd be ludicrous to suggest this isnt the case. The problem is, what can we give to WHM, when the majority of the playerbase value only damage?

All I want is utility and skills that makes sense for the job.

Give WHM some movement speed when using some Wind-type skills. Return Aero III as a 2-charge line AOE and make it leave a trail for 8 seconds to increase the movement speed of players who step on the trail.
Give WHM some stagnation enemy debuff that procs on Dia and makes their next Dia hit harder (BLM thundercloud effect).
Return Stoneskin as a 10% HP AoE shield - but tied to lily gauge for levels 51 to 70. Give a lower level Afflatus Misery at Heavensward after unlocking the lily gauge so the gauge isn't obsolete for 2 expansions before unlocking Afflatus Misery.


Give SCH AoE cleanse and DoTs that can be spread through Deployment Tactics / Bane.

Give SGE more DPS skills that can affect Kardia / addersting gauge in different ways, apply AoE kardia, and give the Icarus skill a second charge.

Give AST interesting card choices and make their Gravity AoE pull nearby enemies closer to the target, thereby making it easier to group the enemies up together.
That's really all I ask for tbh.

Astrodyne, I'm pretty sure, was created because the devs can't take "no the seals system is a failure" as an answer. The only way Astrodyne could have worked is again if 2 of the same seal meant a different buff and Astrodyne was how you played said buff for the whole party instead of just yourself (or some synergy with Synastry where you could give it to yourself and another person). As it stands, I want the damn thing gone. The devs had 2 expansions to make the seals system a worthy buffing system and failed to do so. I don't want a third expansion of it.

The funny thing is that Astrodyne could be a good skill - provided you're at level 50. It's different enough at level 50 to be unique if they continued to buff the skill with traits from levels 60 to 90 and added more support to the seal system itself to make it rewarding to aim for 3 seals. Astrodyne had the potential to THE superbuff support skill that could have just empowered your next cards or turn your next "Minor Arcana" into a "Major Arcana" or even a "Royal Road". Unfortunately, they just left it as a MP-recharging skill... with the latter 2 buff upgrades being so minor that they were effectively negligible to the gameplay itself. It was quite depressing to say the least.