How can we really define Healers?

[Rithy255]

All this would do is replace healers in 4 mans with RDM, and in 8 mans replace a healer with RDM.

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You're completely missing the point.

>White Shift wouldn't replace healers, in theory it would be on the same level as other healers damage output and healing effectiveness. I don't know why I have to state this but oh well, Did you ignore the whole "black shift gives more spells and potency / White shift gives more healing potency and a lot of the healing spells (required to being a healer), did you assume white shift would do the same amount as damage as current RDM? Because that makes no sense, why would I want RDM to be ahead of healers as a healer?

The concept would need work but it would also possibly effect healer Jobs allowing them to also spec into damage builds or a different sort of healing build.

Current RDM doesn't work as a effective healer in 4 man dugeons, It might work well with a Tank to compliment them such as warrior or pld, but I can't imagine a Red Mage healing a dark knight through a 4 man dugeon without feeling like garbage, it would also ruin any sort of damage output that the red mage has, healers can DPS while healing RDM in it's current state can't, if you think current design has problems where healers don't feel useful enough. I agree, abilites such as Blood whetting in it's current form (only in dugeons) really don't take healers into account, the damage output is a joke, there needs to be changes in general in "casual content" Verraise could also be tweaked in ways that make it so RDM couldn't spam it (as a healer)

Talent trees with support options and stuff, yes a lot of fights might have a "optimal" skill depending on the fight but Ideally all skills would perform well and learning what would work best in a certain encounter would make it fine.

The goal wouldn't be to Replace healer, it would be like adding in a new healer, Of course right now the way healers are designed with very meh rotations, you'd either have to simplify it or give healers something a bit more.

Also this was just a example of how RDM could in theory spec into a healer build or a DPS build, It's not meant to be a in depth, I also don't think it should be something added in current ff14, I personally would love the idea of being able to adapt class skills into fitting more roles in game, Problem is the games so rigid and design is so different you'd have to rework a lot of things from the ground up, which yeah the devs wouldn't do, they've stepped away from even small selectable like role actions, I don't think any of this is even realistic

[Renathras]

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>White Shift wouldn't replace healers, in theory it would be on the same level as other healers damage output and healing effectiveness. I don't know why I have to state this but oh well, Did you ignore the whole "black shift gives more spells and potency / White shift gives more healing potency and a lot of the healing spells (required to being a healer), did you assume white shift would do the same amount as damage as current RDM? Because that makes no sense, why would I want RDM to be ahead of healers as a healer?

I guess my issue is that if RDM provides SOME healing, but not ENOUGH healing, then why bring the heal spec instead of the damage spec?

Which makes more sense to bring, a RDM that does 10% less damage but offers about 10% of the HPS of a healer (thus being unable to replace a healer) or a RDM that does 10% more damage but adds no healing?

It has to either do ENOUGH healing to make the damage loss worthwhile, or the damage spec will always be seen as better. If it doesn't do that much healing, then the DPS spec is always better. And if it DOES do enough healing, then it causes issues with healers.

[Rithy255]

I guess my issue is that if RDM provides SOME healing, but not ENOUGH healing, then why bring the heal spec instead of the damage spec?

Which makes more sense to bring, a RDM that does 10% less damage but offers about 10% of the HPS of a healer (thus being unable to replace a healer) or a RDM that does 10% more damage but adds no healing?

It has to either do ENOUGH healing to make the damage loss worthwhile, or the damage spec will always be seen as better. If it doesn't do that much healing, then the DPS spec is always better. And if it DOES do enough healing, then it causes issues with healers.

You think current rdm vercure/magick barrier would be enough as a damage spec, would outright replace healer? then that's a problem with current design of healers. That's what I would generally give it, possible to add more but you'd need to be careful for reasons you have stated, you don't want a RDM in a DPS build to replace or be good enough that it can act as a healer

The healing Spec would
1. add healing trait abilities and healing spells, so basically what healers currently have.
2. add a general healing buff to

The Damage spec would
1. Add a strong magical damage potency (To generally make it on par with other dps)
2. Some damaging spells, mainly strong burst options.

Imagine a sort of skill tree where you can go into two directions one being a (healer) orientated abilities this would include healing potency biists, the other would be (DPS) orientated abilities, this would Include damaging potency passives
a Red mage using the "Black Shift" would not have most healing spells (likely just vercure/magick barrier) while a white shift RDM, would have generally weak potency spells and lack some of the real bursty ones (to the point where it's dps would be the same as your average healer), White shift RDM.

I'm mainly using Red Mage as a baseline as it already has "healing" abilities it's easier to imagine RDM as a healer, but this could apply to tanks giving up defensives ect. PLD would trade in it's Hp, stance ect. But retain some of it's rotational and baseline abilities and be more adapt at healing.

Like I said this would be pretty difficult and unrealistic to balance. But yeah I do think hypothetically it could work? It just would never be implemented into current ff14, the current design is super rigid and wouldn't allow for choice expression and difference specs, having to balance 2 specs per job (with optional stuff inside those specs) would be very tremendous to balance, it wouldn't likely be "good" for the game unless they manage to actually balance it well, which again is a high task, I just like the idea of Jobs being more flexible and having different builds, (Crazy I would enjoy something that not everyone else would).

EDIT: Strictly for arguments sake you couldn't use any abilities or passives of "White Shift" while you are using the "Black shift" action (vise versa), think of it like selectable role actions, you choose white shift and have access to a lot of Red mage healing traits (you couldn't change mid duty)