How can we really define Healers?

[Rithy255]

My problem with "defining healers" is that healers generally have a weird design in the game, They do pretty good damage for a "healer" role so a DPS such as Red Mage or dancer having a strong "healer" utility isn't really really a bad thing in my opinion?

Current Healer design (what defines them) generally has, a Simple one button rotation, Lots of OGCD heals, A GCD Heal with a Aoe counterpart, Giving a red mage a Aoe heal wouldn't really make it a "healer" but giving red mage a general healer kit would turn it into a functional healer, it becomes a problem when you can replace RDM with healers in hard content

I much rather have healers be a sort of spec option for general designs lets say "RDM/PLD/DNC" could theoretically spec into a Healer role with selectable abilities (that would generally hurt your dps), this would apply to other roles possibly having tanking specs or dps specs ect, I feel like allowing jobs to be more flexible instead of forced into a single category would be pretty fun, but I know it wouldn't really happen, because it would be too drastic from the rigid formula we got, I think the general rigid design really doesn't help a lot of jobs in Identity.

I like design that makes Jobs more flexible, Current red mage can't replace a healer in healing in hard content, i think it becomes a problem if it could (with current design anyway), I personally would like looser "roles" like "PLD has to be a tank" "RDM Has to be a DPS" "Sage has to be a healer" Obviously this would cause a lot of imbalance anyway so again it wouldn't happen I just wish it was less rigid then current.

[ty_taurus]

My problem with "defining healers" is that healers generally have a weird design in the game, They do pretty good damage for a "healer" role so a DPS such as Red Mage or dancer having a strong "healer" utility isn't really really a bad thing in my opinion?

Current Healer design (what defines them) generally has, a Simple one button rotation, Lots of OGCD heals, A GCD Heal with a Aoe counterpart, Giving a red mage a Aoe heal wouldn't really make it a "healer" but giving red mage a general healer kit would turn it into a functional healer, it becomes a problem when you can replace RDM with healers in hard content

I much rather have healers be a sort of spec option for general designs lets say "RDM/PLD/DNC" could theoretically spec into a Healer role with selectable abilities (that would generally hurt your dps), this would apply to other roles possibly having tanking specs or dps specs ect, I feel like allowing jobs to be more flexible instead of forced into a single category would be pretty fun, but I know it wouldn't really happen, because it would be too drastic from the rigid formula we got, I think the general rigid design really doesn't help a lot of jobs in Identity.

I like design that makes Jobs more flexible, Current red mage can't replace a healer in healing in hard content, i think it becomes a problem if it could (with current design anyway), I personally would like looser "roles" like "PLD has to be a tank" "RDM Has to be a DPS" "Sage has to be a healer" Obviously this would cause a lot of imbalance anyway so again it wouldn't happen I just wish it was less rigid then current.

I would argue that the ability to change your job takes the place of your ability to choose different specs within your class. A WoW class offers different paths to choose from, but in FFXIV, every job is available to you and that takes the place of your ability to spec. The issue is moreso that we're not taking advantage of that concept as effectively as we should be with the healers, and it's not just within the healer job design. Gear is shared between each healer, but what gear, and what materia each healer wants differs since each healer has a different preference for spell speed. As for kits, there are small strengths each healer does offer that give them minor advantages for certain fights and mechanics. AST has Macrocosmos and raid buffs, SCH has expedient and raid buffs, SGE has the largest amount of mitigation, including Panhaima, and WHM has the strongest burst window for damage contributions. It could definitely be more defined, and this doesn't take into consideration how gameplay feels, but I don't think each job having a fixed toolkit isn't a bad thing inandof itself.

EDIT: I meant to say it isn't a bad thing inandof itself.

[Rithy255]

I would argue that the ability to change your job takes the place of your ability to choose different specs within your class. A WoW class offers different paths to choose from, but in FFXIV, every job is available to you and that takes the place of your ability to spec. The issue is moreso that we're not taking advantage of that concept as effectively as we should be with the healers, and it's not just within the healer job design. Gear is shared between each healer, but what gear, and what materia each healer wants differs since each healer has a different preference for spell speed. As for kits, there are small strengths each healer does offer that give them minor advantages for certain fights and mechanics. AST has Macrocosmos and raid buffs, SCH has expedient and raid buffs, SGE has the largest amount of mitigation, including Panhaima, and WHM has the strongest burst window for damage contributions. It could definitely be more defined, and this doesn't take into consideration how gameplay feels, but I don't think each job having a fixed toolkit is a bad thing inandof itself.

I think jobs having a fixed tool kit in general is a bad thing personally, I understand your argument and we're at a point where it would be hard to even design one different spec for each job, I prefer more diversity and ways to play the game Instead of "1 job 1 way to play". Of course you can choose a different job but even then a lot of jobs in the same category pretty much play the same with minor differences at this point.

Healer design I feel like suffers the most from it, with no real major designs that "shake up" the healer role, I guess regens vs barriers are good, but that's why I liked how Astro could have the choice between two instead of being stuck as one type of healer, it gives jobs more breathing room for diversity, I generally think Healers haven't been well thought out for a long time

Casual Content healer design is laughable and I don't think healer design should purely be around only the hard content either, even adding some more incoming damage and maybe small rotations would generally help make healers feel a bit more different, they played sage so safely it pretty much shows they have no idea on how they would make a new unique healer have it's own niche (of course theirs differences but sage/sch are very borrowed, ast and white mage feel different enough from each other)

Obviously what I want from the game is going to be different from others and I don't expect people to agree, but I want design that is more flexible.

[ty_taurus]

I think jobs having a fixed tool kit in general is a bad thing personally, I understand your argument and we're at a point where it would be hard to even design one different spec for each job, I prefer more diversity and ways to play the game Instead of "1 job 1 way to play". Of course you can choose a different job but even then a lot of jobs in the same category pretty much play the same with minor differences at this point.

Healer design I feel like suffers the most from it, with no real major designs that "shake up" the healer role, I guess regens vs barriers are good, but that's why I liked how Astro could have the choice between two instead of being stuck as one type of healer, it gives jobs more breathing room for diversity, I generally think Healers haven't been well thought out for a long time

Casual Content healer design is laughable and I don't think healer design should purely be around only the hard content either, even adding some more incoming damage and maybe small rotations would generally help make healers feel a bit more different, they played sage so safely it pretty much shows they have no idea on how they would make a new unique healer have it's own niche (of course theirs differences but sage/sch are very borrowed, ast and white mage feel different enough from each other)

Obviously what I want from the game is going to be different from others and I don't expect people to agree, but I want design that is more flexible.

I think the concept of fixed vs specked toolkits is too broad of a concept to say that one is objectively a negative. It can definitely be a point of preference of course, but for me, I also feel like designing jobs with specs can also lead to one spec being objectively worse than the other and thus feeling like a punishment to those that chose the lesser option. That said I do think there is room for subtle choice to exist within healer kits. Diurnal vs Nocturnal in your example was fine. Nocturnal was largely inferior, but it was also something that was different rather than just being less damage, for example, so there were nuances that could give it an edge. Eos vs Selene as well is something that I think we should go back to. I think old Selene was always a bit problematic, but we can do something different with that in a more balanced way, such as choosing between more raw healing and defensive utility rather than offensive where the pressure to increase DPS contribution is too important in this game.

[Risvertasashi]

My problem with "defining healers" is that healers generally have a weird design in the game, They do pretty good damage for a "healer" role so a DPS such as Red Mage or dancer having a strong "healer" utility isn't really really a bad thing in my opinion?

Healers do crap damage and it's gone down, relative to other roles, as expansions have progressed onwards.

It's still optimal to DPS because of the gross abundance of resources (time/MP/job-specific/etc), and because SE makes DPS checks so tight that - in high level content - it can still be difficult to impossible to beat the DPS check without the lowest damage people contributing.

I much rather have healers be a sort of spec option for general designs lets say "RDM/PLD/DNC" could theoretically spec into a Healer role with selectable abilities (that would generally hurt your dps), this would apply to other roles possibly having tanking specs or dps specs ect, I feel like allowing jobs to be more flexible instead of forced into a single category would be pretty fun, but I know it wouldn't really happen, because it would be too drastic from the rigid formula we got, I think the general rigid design really doesn't help a lot of jobs in Identity.

I like design that makes Jobs more flexible, Current red mage can't replace a healer in healing in hard content, i think it becomes a problem if it could (with current design anyway), I personally would like looser "roles" like "PLD has to be a tank" "RDM Has to be a DPS" "Sage has to be a healer" Obviously this would cause a lot of imbalance anyway so again it wouldn't happen I just wish it was less rigid then current.

And games designed like this often leads to the death of healers outside of specific bits of content that really need them.

FF14 already doesn't need healers in dungeons and much other content. Take away the role requirement from the duty finder by allowing anyone with a "heal spec" to do it, and it's dead.

I think my "favorite" example of this was Secret World - wherein people would want you to take a heal spec for perhaps 1 of 5 fights in a dungeon, and just be pure DPS the rest of the time.

Now, the trend in MMOs overall is to delete healers, but, yeeeah, I don't want it here. We've gotten close enough as it is.

[Rithy255]

Healers do crap damage and it's gone down, relative to other roles, as expansions have progressed onwards.

It's still optimal to DPS because of the gross abundance of resources (time/MP/job-specific/etc), and because SE makes DPS checks so tight that - in high level content - it can still be difficult to impossible to beat the DPS check without the lowest damage people contributing.



And games designed like this often leads to the death of healers outside of specific bits of content that really need them.

FF14 already doesn't need healers in dungeons and much other content. Take away the role requirement from the duty finder by allowing anyone with a "heal spec" to do it, and it's dead.

I think my "favorite" example of this was Secret World - wherein people would want you to take a heal spec for perhaps 1 of 5 fights in a dungeon, and just be pure DPS the rest of the time.

Now, the trend in MMOs overall is to delete healers, but, yeeeah, I don't want it here. We've gotten close enough as it is.

Making heals more required in general casual content would fix that, even if you had "healer specs" you can balance it in a way that would hurt the general DPS of a role speccing into healer, I wouldn't expect a massive "skill tree" Potions from bozja like content are a decent example, you who sacrifice damage or tanking ability for healing output (you could even make heals tied to a certain hardline healer spec that would mean you'd have to have decreased damage no matter what, if you wanting healing ability, Obviously this would need a lot more work and would likely just be a pain to balance, but I personally enjoy a job being able to fulfil more then one role and only having one set way of playing.

Right now Healers contribute around 50% of a DPS damage, which is massive compared to something like Wow or other games for a Job "Healer" Should healers, generally be more heal focused yes, that's their purpose in a game generally, that's a problem with fight design, Healers aren't in a good state, they need to either up the healing requirements or rework healers in general, the current design makes healers pretty useless in content that 99% of the playerbase is playing, The problem is when you make content where a certain role isn't required or makes it significantly harder to do without.

I think you're blaming poor game design choices that ruin the healer on any actual Idea or innovation on how healers could work (would be pretty hard to balance everything with the current direction of the game so it's only a dream for me), My idea to let more jobs have flexibility isn't really fleshed out because I know they will carry on the current design on healers, I don't think they would go into any actual options in the game because it would be harder to balance, I don't think it would ever be implemented and like I've said just because I enjoy diversity and more different ways to play a different job, doesn't mean you have to agree.

EDIT: also yes sometimes some specs are more "meta" then others but if you compare different jobs to others theirs also better meta picks, theirs always going to be a "optimal" and "suboptimal" way of playing any game, making everyjob the same isn't a good fix (every change right now has been fit jobs into burst jobs) I rather a clunky unbalanced game with options then a boring game where every job type plays the same.

[Risvertasashi]

I mean I'm not saying there aren't design issues here.

But going down the spec route will inevitably result in "bring the minimum amount of healing necessary to clear, and maximum damage." And even if SE committed to reworking every dungeon and nerfing tanks on a scale that the game hasn't seen in its entire history, it will still be a pipe dream to expect every instance to require such an amount of healing that someone would go all in on a healing spec.

Heck, even in ultimates, people would be going "Well you don't really need this ability or that ability, you can cut it for more damage." We pretty much already get the FF14 version of that - figuring out where to cut healing for that extra damage GCD.

[Rithy255]

I mean I'm not saying there aren't design issues here.

But going down the spec route will inevitably result in "bring the minimum amount of healing necessary to clear, and maximum damage." And even if SE committed to reworking every dungeon and nerfing tanks on a scale that the game hasn't seen in its entire history, it will still be a pipe dream to expect every instance to require such an amount of healing that someone would go all in on a healing spec.

Heck, even in ultimates, people would be going "Well you don't really need this ability or that ability, you can cut it for more damage." We pretty much already get the FF14 version of that - figuring out where to cut healing for that extra damage GCD.

Imagine if you could spec into two different sort of support abilites for example
>Option A: Gives out a small party Barrier around the team and "X"% mitigation CD: 90
>Option B: Gives out a aoe heal For "X" Potency CD: 60

That's a choice that doesn't have to be tied to direct damage.

Lets have another example

Red Mage
Option 1: White Shift, Will grant you a lot of healing spells and a healing potency increase passive, maybe some choose able healing spells aswell
Option 2: Black Shift, Will grant you a lot of damage spells and a damage increase, Potency increase ect.

Shifts would be selectable like old role actions ect, it could really work given the effort
Theirs ways of balancing it Imo.

[Risvertasashi]

In that scenario, they would always go for option A unless there was some really specific fight mechanic that just happened to be perfect for B. At least in high level play.

As for options 1 & 2. Well that would go to the Secret World example mentioned before. "White shift for this one boss that has higher healing requirements, black shift for everything else" or similar.

Divorcing specs from affecting damage would help. But I'm still pretty skeptical of it overall.

[Rithy255]

In that scenario, they would always go for option A unless there was some really specific fight mechanic that just happened to be perfect for B. At least in high level play.

As for options 1 & 2. Well that would go to the Secret World example mentioned before. "White shift for this one boss that has higher healing requirements, black shift for everything else" or similar.

Divorcing specs from affecting damage would help. But I'm still pretty skeptical of it overall.

Well you couldn't really heal in black shift (lets say black shift would give you current RDM without raise) do you think that would even be healable? vercure alone wouldn't make a lot of content healable (Obviously you could give it slight healing and support but only to the extension of current DPS Jobs),It really wouldn't be able to replace a really healer even in casual content, I guess casual with like a warrior tank could be? (War would be the healer?) but the point is one build would heavily lean into healing elements the other would lean into a DPS element

Warrior is generally a big problem with healer design in content like dugeons, I know people enjoy being op but it doesn't feel good as a healer, they also would in theory need to increase boss damage, as dugeon bosses don't even hit hard.

Stronger healing output vs mitigation and barriers both have their uses, that was a general example obviously they can have a strong heal to compete with a barrier/mit effect, hence me leaving out potencies in general, Obviously you need a certain degree of mitigation for fights but you also really want a certain amount of healing output, that's OCGD so you do have time for attacking spells, Would make bringing certain spells depending on gear and the fight more important.

Speccing different DPS stuff might be more harder I think theirs a few examples like you could give a job a "Dot" or a outright hard hitting move, but that would generally be harder to even balance.