PVP PLD Cheese Problem

[Deveryn]

Did you think 24 people will always listen to you? Did you ever go into jail or yelling at you "You did not pay for my subscription" while you are doing call out?
Organized 8 people in extreme/savage/ultimate is not easy already. Will 24 random people be easier? Especially some people do not even care about it.
PVP has more to learn than any PVE content. PVE is scripted, but PVP is not. Players do move, is dynamic environment. You need not only the skill for the class you are playing, you also need to know what other class has, what should you do in what conditions, map awareness (even though so many people do not open maps), teamwork, targeting, prediction, time management and more.

Yes to both. Note that I said it was easy for people to follow along, not to get them to follow along.
Getting yelled at or not being listened to is fairly common, but there are those that appreciate it, especially when we win.

[LianaThorne]

Did you think 24 people will always listen to you? Did you ever go into jail or yelling at you "You did not pay for my subscription" while you are doing call out?
Organized 8 people in extreme/savage/ultimate is not easy already. Will 24 random people be easier? Especially some people do not even care about it.
PVP has more to learn than any PVE content. PVE is scripted, but PVP is not. Players do move, is dynamic environment. You need not only the skill for the class you are playing, you also need to know what other class has, what should you do in what conditions, map awareness (even though so many people do not open maps), teamwork, targeting, prediction, time management and more.

If you do good calls then yeah, people will listen. I do them for Onsal, Secure and sometimes Seal Rock. You also don't need to know all of what you listed to do good calls in pvp, just awarenesss of where your team is and closest objectives to hit based on priority. Throw in knowing when is a good time to pinch the leading team and you're set. The vast majority of my calls based on that have led to wins.

[Godzillaxpowerrangers]

Sadly I dont think anything will happen to it. SE will do some pvp changes but keep it since they are sticking with it is working as attend.

[IDontPetLalas]

I used to love play frontline a lot, enjoy collaborate with other people to achieve some goal, heal people, rescue over extend people, burst people down, get exp, and farm some tomes.
I need to admit I do not like new pvp skill at all, and until today, I tried my first frontline in onsal with new pvp skill. I can not believe how PLD can just cheese with tank lb while capturing the flag. I really feel hopeless when 6 PLD just walk into the flag you are trying to defend and BOOM! PLD go it and you can not do anything at all. My perspective on frontline is really strategic as long as people people are willing to collaborate or listen to call out. But now, is like crap.
SE, can you please tell me how does this make frontline more fun?
I assume seal rock might be the same case? Hope someone can tell me about it
Please SE fix this... I won't play frontline until they fix this bug.

By the way, I also love the intensive healing that old healer has, buffing, debuffing, healing, rescuing, positioning, and how people have mind set need to protect healer. But now.....everyone has healing ability?!!! does that mean healer need to be glare machine same as PVE?

Since a number of people, particularly AnotherPerson, have already gone over gone over how the Paladin tactic can be countered, I thought I would speak to your first point because it has been largely skipped over.

I would say that with the exception of rescuing other people, you can do all of that on the current WHM in PVP. You will do it differently from the past, and you will not be spamming heals but getting heals by damage spells, or via your LB. You are a support job. Each healer is a support job, You have also one of the most (arguably) annoying CCs in PVP. That can let you support your teammates very effectively (or yourself). AST is also a strong support, with its cards, CC, and LB, where it can be argued that for example SGE is more of a DPS in PVP even though it has utility.

[SweetPete]

Well if we’re jumping on paladin let’s jump on all melee. They are all ridiculously tough to kill now. Playing melee is the current cheese in frontlines.

[Knot_D]

Well if we’re jumping on paladin let’s jump on all melee. They are all ridiculously tough to kill now. Playing melee is the current cheese in frontlines.

I do agree with this as well. Usually I can easily kill melees with AST's Macrocosmos and MCH's Sniper... But now those don't do anything to them lol...

[Absimiliard]

"Melee are overpowered in frontlines."
Meanwhile, MCH: "Hehe delete button go brrr"

[GrumbleBeard]

"Melee are overpowered in frontlines."
Meanwhile, MCH: "Hehe delete button go brrr"

wew that 16k damage lb will surely have the melees shaking in their boots.

[Kansene]

cont.d:

The "get better at killing their team and dominate through BH" tip rubbed me the wrong way in general to be honest. It doesn't take many people to pld cheese. The rest of the team will often be playing normally, being just as into killing you as you are into killing them. What happens if 2 teams are equally good at the killing part, but one of them happens to spam pld cheese at every node?
As I stated earlier, the abuse won't win the game by itself, but if you're going to compete in a foot race it sure helps to bring a motorbike, amirite?
And in this metaphor Yoshi-p and co are the judges going "Yeah one or two of the teams are just using their legs to run, but we decided using a motorbike is not against the rules so gg."
The cheese has a tendency to work, and not get countered. So if two approximately equally skilled teams clash, the one that also abuses pld the hardest comes out on top. And though our mileage may vary, I've rarely seen a third team being involved making much of a difference. Oftentimes because of simply poor decisions from one or two of the non-cheesing teams.
And I've rarely, if even ever, seen anyone trying to rally people through /a chat and coming up with strategies actually being listened to.
Maybe the US and EU server are just different in that regard though, I wouldn't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say with my nonsensical rambling is:
The cheese is a distasteful, unsportsmanlike, cheap, gimmicky, boring, and just thoroughly unlikeable mechanic that makes the game worse.
It has counters, but setting up those counters is a complicated, tedious chore that is almost guaranteed not to work with a group of randoms (anecdotally).
It can be botched, but I suspect that most cheesers work in coordinated teams of at least 2 people because I've seen it succeed almost unfailingly for entire days on end (gf was farming for 100 win mount, thank GOD she got it recently).
It can be made irrelevant by being incredibly superior in terms of battle prowess, but this requires your team (or both other teams if only one team is cheesing and they both pick up on it and get ticked off by it) to consist of better players than the cheesers. And even then, a bad team can get carried, or semi-carried at the very least, by this abuse. As previously stated I've seen teams just absolutely slingshot their way from a losing position to casually strolling through victory through suddenly hardcore cheesing with 6-7 paladins on their team.

TL;DR:
Unfun garbage. Not entering Onsal again. Bai. But thank you for the civil discussion.

[zabu]

cont.d:
And in this metaphor Yoshi-p and co are the judges going "Yeah one or two of the teams are just using their legs to run, but we decided using a motorbike is not against the rules so gg."
The cheese has a tendency to work, and not get countered. So if two approximately equally skilled teams clash, the one that also abuses pld the hardest comes out on top. And though our mileage may vary, I've rarely seen a third team being involved making much of a difference. Oftentimes because of simply poor decisions from one or two of the non-cheesing teams.
And I've rarely, if even ever, seen anyone trying to rally people through /a chat and coming up with strategies actually being listened to.
Maybe the US and EU server are just different in that regard though, I wouldn't know.

I guess what I'm trying to say with my nonsensical rambling is:
The cheese is a distasteful, unsportsmanlike, cheap, gimmicky, boring, and just thoroughly unlikeable mechanic that makes the game worse.
It has counters, but setting up those counters is a complicated, tedious chore that is almost guaranteed not to work with a group of randoms (anecdotally).
It can be botched, but I suspect that most cheesers work in coordinated teams of at least 2 people because I've seen it succeed almost unfailingly for entire days on end (gf was farming for 100 win mount, thank GOD she got it recently).
It can be made irrelevant by being incredibly superior in terms of battle prowess, but this requires your team (or both other teams if only one team is cheesing and they both pick up on it and get ticked off by it) to consist of better players than the cheesers. And even then, a bad team can get carried, or semi-carried at the very least, by this abuse. As previously stated I've seen teams just absolutely slingshot their way from a losing position to casually strolling through victory through suddenly hardcore cheesing with 6-7 paladins on their team.

TL;DR:
Unfun garbage. Not entering Onsal again. Bai. But thank you for the civil discussion.

I strongly agree on your statement. You can not expect random people try to set up some counter on some organized stuff. Just like PVE content, static vs party finder in savage or ultimate.
As I said, in my yesterday's onsal run, 6 PLD with tank lb, rush in. What can a bunch of random people do?
Based on SE's philosophy, we can play any class we want. But what now? we have to play something that counter the class?
This is just like the drama on PLD and WAR in P8S.

I will not play frontline until this stupid changes make, and strongly opposed on the current pvp skill system.