PVP PLD Cheese Problem

[zabu]

I used to love play frontline a lot, enjoy collaborate with other people to achieve some goal, heal people, rescue over extend people, burst people down, get exp, and farm some tomes.
I need to admit I do not like new pvp skill at all, and until today, I tried my first frontline in onsal with new pvp skill. I can not believe how PLD can just cheese with tank lb while capturing the flag. I really feel hopeless when 6 PLD just walk into the flag you are trying to defend and BOOM! PLD go it and you can not do anything at all. My perspective on frontline is really strategic as long as people people are willing to collaborate or listen to call out. But now, is like crap.
SE, can you please tell me how does this make frontline more fun?
I assume seal rock might be the same case? Hope someone can tell me about it
Please SE fix this... I won't play frontline until they fix this bug.

By the way, I also love the intensive healing that old healer has, buffing, debuffing, healing, rescuing, positioning, and how people have mind set need to protect healer. But now.....everyone has healing ability?!!! does that mean healer need to be glare machine same as PVE?

[Knot_D]

I used to love play frontline a lot, enjoy collaborate with other people to achieve some goal, heal people, rescue over extend people, burst people down, get exp, and farm some tomes.
I need to admit I do not like new pvp skill at all, and until today, I tried my first frontline in onsal with new pvp skill. I can not believe how PLD can just cheese with tank lb while capturing the flag. I really feel hopeless when 6 PLD just walk into the flag you are trying to defend and BOOM! PLD go it and you can not do anything at all. My perspective on frontline is really strategic as long as people people are willing to collaborate or listen to call out. But now, is like crap.
SE, can you please tell me how does this make frontline more fun?
I assume seal rock might be the same case? Hope someone can tell me about it
Please SE fix this... I won't play frontline until they fix this bug.

By the way, I also love the intensive healing that old healer has, buffing, debuffing, healing, rescuing, positioning, and how people have mind set need to protect healer. But now.....everyone has healing ability?!!! does that mean healer need to be glare machine same as PVE?

I think they won't fixed it because someone who reported this to bug section already marked as "Work as Intended"... So yeah it's kinda hopeless...

[zabu]

I think they won't fixed it because someone who reported this to bug section already marked as "Work as Intended"... So yeah it's kinda hopeless...

Ya, I saw that post, it is not a bug I agree, just horrible design. They claim new pvp skill will be more fun, but I do not feel that at all. It is even worse.

[AnotherPerson]

That's the intended effect of PLD by design. It's how PLD plays in CC as well. Cover is meant to take all CC to the PLD. Otherwise, why would you pick PLD when it just has the lowest DPS of all the tanks?

That being said, you can still easily counter them with CC or even NIN LB. After all, they have little to no damage at all. Just bully them after they capture the flag and make their points gained useless. They can't contest against anyone if they're always beaten up and your team gets Battle High faster. Battle High is what ends up winning the game in the end.

It's pretty much a skill issue at that point if you keep on getting beaten up by the PLD cheese and can't win objectives. PLD cheese is really easy to beat as long as you have team members that hard focus them once you identify who they are. The main key point is that you can't let them play to their strengths (AKA let them freely capture and then run away without penalty). You either have to attack them early to break their plan ahead of time or punish them for using cover and guard early so that they have to die and respawn while your team gets higher stats from Battle High.

[zabu]

That's the intended effect of PLD by design. It's how PLD plays in CC as well. Cover is meant to take all CC to the PLD. Otherwise, why would you pick PLD when it just has the lowest DPS of all the tanks?

That being said, you can still easily counter them with CC or even NIN LB. After all, they have little to no damage at all. Just bully them after they capture the flag and make their points gained useless. They can't contest against anyone if they're always beaten up and your team gets Battle High faster. Battle High is what ends up winning the game in the end.

It's pretty much a skill issue at that point if you keep on getting beaten up by the PLD cheese and can't win objectives. PLD cheese is really easy to beat as long as you have team members that hard focus them once you identify who they are. The main key point is that you can't let them play to their strengths (AKA let them freely capture and then run away without penalty). You either have to attack them early to break their plan ahead of time or punish them for using cover and guard early so that they have to die and respawn while your team gets higher stats from Battle High.

even though PLD has lowest DPS , it has great lead the team and push into the enemy team and crash the enemy. Damage is not everything.
How are you going to beaten 6 PLD running into the flag at the same time? Do we always have enough CC or NIN LB? Do most player even know that?! Isnt frontline casual content?
Can you even target enemy PLD when 10+ people standing under the flag?!!! I dont think our target system is that great.
As DPS, you can not even tank 48 people trying to attack people under the flag, you go in and literally die within 10 seconds before you can even do something on PLD.
Even with BH5, you cant do anything, literally tried it. BH is pretty late game stuff. Does that mean early game we can just look at PLD capture everything?

[MintnHoney]

By the way, I also love the intensive healing that old healer has, buffing, debuffing, healing, rescuing, positioning, and how people have mind set need to protect healer. But now.....everyone has healing ability?!!! does that mean healer need to be glare machine same as PVE?

If you're thinking like that, then you don't really understand this PVP design at all.

[AnotherPerson]

even though PLD has lowest DPS , it has great lead the team and push into the enemy team and crash the enemy. Damage is not everything.

That's the point. This is what makes PLD good. It has a unique niche. So it stands to reason that it shouldn't be taken away or nerfed, or they really have no niche otherwise.

How are you going to beaten 6 PLD running into the flag at the same time? Do we always have enough CC or NIN LB? Do most player even know that?! Isnt frontline casual content?
Can you even target enemy PLD when 10+ people standing under the flag?!!! I dont think our target system is that great.
As DPS, you can not even tank 48 people trying to attack people under the flag, you go in and literally die within 10 seconds before you can even do something on PLD.
Even with BH5, you cant do anything, literally tried it. BH is pretty late game stuff. Does that mean early game we can just look at PLD capture everything?

You see, that's the big issue you have. You're waiting until 6 PLD starts running towards the flag before attacking.
You have to either punish them before that happens by staggering them with CC, or you punish them right after.
Cover lasts for 10 seconds and has a 25 second cd. However, Guard has a 30 second cd and only lasts for 5 seconds.

The reason why PLD can capture using Guardian / Cover cheese is because they save Guard to cover their ally. If they don't have Guard up, they'll immediately get blown into pieces by enemy attacks.
So, why would you wait until they start running in WITH guard up? Why not just force them to guard early by blasting them ahead of time? If they can't reach the capture point with guard, they cannot defend against CC and capture the objective.


And yes, I can target enemy PLD with 10+ people standing under the flag. I can actually use my mouse or tab target until I select them. Basically every job have an attack that can be used for AoE. Lots of jobs have ranged AoEs. How else do you think Ninjas individually pick and find kills with their Limit break?
Plus, no one stands around for 10+ seconds in melee range unless they want to be killed. That's what weaving in and out of combat is supposed to be for. Why else do you have sprint?
So... again, skill issue.

[zabu]

That's the point. This is what makes PLD good. It has a unique niche. So it stands to reason that it shouldn't be taken away or nerfed, or they really have no niche otherwise.



You see, that's the big issue you have. You're waiting until 6 PLD starts running towards the flag before attacking.
You have to either punish them before that happens by staggering them with CC, or you punish them right after.
Cover lasts for 10 seconds and has a 25 second cd. However, Guard has a 30 second cd and only lasts for 5 seconds.

The reason why PLD can capture using Guardian / Cover cheese is because they save Guard to cover their ally. If they don't have Guard up, they'll immediately get blown into pieces by enemy attacks.
So, why would you wait until they start running in WITH guard up? Why not just force them to guard early by blasting them ahead of time? If they can't reach the capture point with guard, they cannot defend against CC and capture the objective.


And yes, I can target enemy PLD with 10+ people standing under the flag. I can actually use my mouse or tab target until I select them. Basically every job have an attack that can be used for AoE. Lots of jobs have ranged AoEs. How else do you think Ninjas individually pick and find kills with their Limit break?
Plus, no one stands around for 10+ seconds in melee range unless they want to be killed. That's what weaving in and out of combat is supposed to be for. Why else do you have sprint?
So... again, skill issue.

The point of HG is to push not to capture, this is literally abusive usage.
You can not expect everyone has the same mind set and skill level as you have..... This is casual content. Do not even complain skill issue in PVE then.

[AnotherPerson]

The point of HG is to push not to capture, this is literally abusive usage.
You can not expect everyone has the same mind set and skill level as you have..... This is casual content. Do not even complain skill issue in PVE then.

No, the point of Hallowed Ground is to create an opportunity by reducing the amount of incoming damage towards you and your party members. Likewise, the charge time of Hallowed Ground is equally as long to compensate on how gamechanging it can be when used at the right moment. However, it's up to the player to figure out how it can best suit their situation and needs. HG is never meant to be used solely for pushing, and it is your misconception for thinking so.

You say not everyone has the same mindset and skill level as I have, but then you go around and say it's casual content and people shouldn't complain about skill issue in PvE.
Have you thought what you said could also go against what your mindset is as well?

After all, casual content in PvP is still PvP. People who try harder in PvP naturally get better because they put in more effort to win. The same applies with PvE with skill rotations and understanding boss mechanics for casual content.
You are not required to put in more effort in PvP to play PvP. Likewise, you are not required to put in more effort in PvE to play PvE. However, it doesn't stop players from trying all sorts of ways to get better if they want to improve though.

People who can think out of the box to use PLD's Cover offensively is players taking full advantage of their toolkit in accordance to the situation at hand. It's the same concept as players utilizing SGE's LB to zone people out of capturing an objective rather than using it to defend themselves. Each strategy comes with its own risks and rewards, and the players who thought of the strategy believes the rewards outweigh the risks.

You don't have to play better and think out of the box to compete against other players who are actively strategizing more than the average player, but you shouldn't complain when others are trying harder to do better than you and you don't want to do the same. You will still get a reward for second and third place in Frontlines, regardless of how you perform.

[Kansene]

The pld abuse is a damn travesty that should never have been enabled in the first place.
It's "easily countered" only if you have the specific jobs available that can do anything about it, who also manage to single them out amidst all the chaos, who also manage not to botch the counter.
It takes zero effort to use the guard abuse, it takes a massive amount of coordination and effort to counter it.

Pld cheese won't win the game on its own, but it sure helps that you get to nearly automatically cap any nodes you want because let's face it: Most teams are not able to properly deal with the pld cheese unless they are so massively superior in open combat that the pld and their cap buddy never even make it close to the node.
I've seen countless, countless matches where a team has started losing, then just turned 100% unga bunga pld abuse mode and turned the battle completely around because they resorted to doing nothing but cheese spam.

When an entire FL degenerates into "locate and disable paladins first, everything else secondary" then something isn't right. And what do I do if I'm playing, say, GNB, or SCH? If I see a paladin doing their thing, the literal only thing I can do is stand there like a dofus and watch them cap without having the ability to do anything about it. And don't come here with "just bring teammates who can counter it lol", it's a disingenuous argument that "somebody can do something about it some of the time so it's okay".
Guard needs one simple fix, and that fix is this: "Capping can still be interrupted while guarded." No need to remove the CC immunity, no need to remove the damage immunity. Just level the playing field so we don't see 15+ paladins every time we do Onsal.

EDIT: That being said, this thread should probably be in the PvP section, or better yet, add to one of the bigger threads there already about the topic instead. Allegedly that provides more visibility than several short threads.