Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[ZiraZ]

DNC and BRD are also harder than MCH. Being lower satisfies proper balance and being close in potential satisfies viability.

I'm also gonna also utilize a completely arbitrary way to measure difficulty, Casts Per Minute.
Therefore Redmage should be at the bottom and below MCH in all dps metrics.
In fact, AST should get Verraise now because why not, they are harder using the CPM difficulty methodology.
This cannot be refuted, this is a fact, RDM is slow therefore easy.
Source: I made it up.

[Foinhas]

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). This could be counterbalanced by the utility that RDM provides, right? The problem is RDM utility is very lackluster right now. This is something that RDM mains have been complainign since 6.0, but every single time we get shot down by the community to the point that devs just don't get the necessary feedback about this job. So PLEASE do not shut us down this time so the devs can look at the job for the first time in nine months and realize there are probems that need to be fixed, because right now, playing RezMachineGoesVrrrr.lol just isn't fun.

[Ransu]

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

[Nutshell]

I decided to play SAM on my alt for my drunk static. That very first week I knew NOTHING on playing SAM besides knowing I wanted to play fast SAM so I melded as much SkS as I could.
That first week playing freestyle SAM I did more damage than I did playing MCH.
It takes a lot of practice on MCH to reach freestyle SAM levels of play.
SAM is easier than MCH lol

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep44222#Sec23
"subjective experience of difficulty depends on multiple cues that are indicative of performance."
Since my performance with SAM was higher than MCH with considerably less effort it makes sense to me that MCH must be the harder class to play.

If you can't tell by now this isn't a serious post. I'm almost certainly improperly using this study to fit my very real example (It still shows that difficulty is subjective lol)
I just fear that if they use "difficulty" as their benchmark to balance dps we will either keep the current trend going(yay the fill slot is always melee /s) or end up with every class doing basically the same amount of damage (boring)

[CKNovel]

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). .

-> Recently joined
-> RDM OTP
-> Doesn't play high end content
Hmmmmmm.

No.
rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

As for the utility, MCH only brings tacticians which is also brought by DNC and BRD under their own names.

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

[Mithron]

rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

It's still important to discuss these things as they are important topics that need discussing. We have enough executive function with our prefrontal cortex to ignore him and continue discussing what matters.

[Kabooa]

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

This is the point of the thread.

Asking that question and whether or not the justifications still hold weight.

My own thought was that the Devs work within a framework that is outdated (And wasn't very good to begin with.) Our current framework is the simplified Cross Class system, where instead of leveling multiple jobs to complete the kit of one, they took what were effectively the cross class actions considered necessary outside of damage buffs and place them into the "Roles" and then divided the jobs into those roles based on their basic playstyle, aka Melee, Caster, and Marksman (Physical ranged).

In other words, this frame work is the same one we've used since A Realm Reborn, and despite whatever fond memories longstanding players have for ARR and HW, once you expand the scope of class design outside of FF14, this game, at its best, has never been more than acceptable in that regard. (Opinion, mine.)

Every fix, every change, is done within this framework for them to minimize development time so they can keep pushing out content.

The framework has to change, because the changes we're seeing necessitate changes to jobs that break the current framework. It isn't a "right now" solution, it's a "From now and moving on" process. I stated as much in an older post before the shit wading started.

Upping potencies is what is traditionally done, but we've been upping potencies for years and keep arriving at the same problems. I have been, and still am, completely exhausted of seeing the same bandages patch up the bleeding in one area just to see it start up somewhere else. The problem isn't at the top, it's deeper, and until they see it suitable to take the time to change that, we will see this problem continue on, especially as more jobs are added.

[Ivtrix]

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

That is the crux issue right?

The general consensus is the variables that SE uses to tune what you would I guess call "intangibles" (melee vs ranged, aggregate buffs/utility brought, etc) doesnt make sense compared to what we see via 3rd party analysis of job performance + anecdotal/analysis of a DPS's role within the team and within the encounter.

[CKNovel]

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

One of them is an exception that escapes the rule.
And if I can base myself on BLM, then I believe MCH is the exception.
SAM contributes better to the team but if DNC is so high, it's mainly thanks to Samurai.
We need to look at both aDPS and rDPS to understand how a job can scale with buffs and how much they bring to the party.

If we look into rDPS, MCH brings barely anything to increase the party total DPS.
If we look into aDPS, MCH barely benefits from buffs and generates low rDPS.

I do agree it's important to debate things such as the subjectivity of difficulty.
Even if we go in a circle, we polish our view of the game and our arguments.
Which is what I meant by "dunking on troll arguments". None of them are useless.
I mean, thanks to Firemage we're more convinced jobs shouldn't be balanced around job difficulty.
Thanks to the other guy we're convinced that the gap between melees and ranged is cannot be justified anymore.

[FireMage]

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

Except that I'm not. Stating facts is not and never will be trolling. This is like dealing with flat-earthers