Let's redefine "damage taxes"

[FireMage]

That is bad balancing.
You don't balance around difficulty ever.
Difficulty is meaningless with competent players.

You absolutely do, it is the correct way to do so

To quote the bearded, bald, enraged man:
"DING DONG"

When looking at tank role, which value should you use, rDPS or aDPS?
The correct answer is... Both!

aDPS shows how the tank scale with buffs.
rDPS shows how much they're taxed (therefore how much rDPS they provide to their teammates)

Using rDPS, PLD is better. Using aDPS WAR is better. But in the case of tanks, who are pure DPS, aDPS is the value to go.
Because PLD is a sustained DPS job, it will not scale much better with raid buff, therefore the tax is lower on them.

Once you understand the value of both rDPS and aDPS, you can apply that to DPS.
You can see that SAM is going bonker with buffs, Black mage is above melees and MCH far below melees who provides rDPS.
If you look at rDPS alone, you'd say to yourself "why should I bring a SAM or BLM?" but then you look how much rDPS they generate and go "ooooh".

But we've explained that pages ago.

Tanks are a non factor in this matter, note the subforum. And your entire point is...? rDPS is the correct metric

[SaberMaxwell]

This was stated way back at page 6, but I would look to point out that a percentile discrepancy is not the end all, be all.
The highest I peeked at briefly was about 12687.
A 11% difference is about 1395 damage leaving 11,291 rounding down.
That isn't something to be concerned about, as there is no encounter currently where an 11% difference is going to result in a wipe due to lack of DPS.
If it does occur, it is usually due to errors in rotation, poor balance in boss HP (which SE is infamous for), or other factors.
Its exceedingly rare where such a difference will make any difference in end game content at the minimum ilvl.
So don't get so heated about it. It isn't worth it.
Mind you this is with aDPS, as you utilize rDPS and nDPS the numerical difference decreases.

Seriously, the percentile usage can be pretty deceptive because its the same as someone bringing up likelihood of cancer.

If smoking increases the likelihood of lung cancer by 50%, but the actual rate is .000000001%, it may be statically significant but it is meaningfully significant.

tl;dr It is a game, not your life, chill with the flaming.



That is bad balancing.
You don't balance around difficulty ever.
Difficulty is meaningless with competent players.

Currently, because they had to nerf the fight that did cause wipes due to poor performance. On launch, every damage per second counted--even the 500 dps that GNB brought passively over WAR counted. You bet your britches a dps is looking at another job almost passively doing 1000 more rDPS than it and worrying that they're trolling their static by continuing to play the job they enjoy.

[dspguy]

When it comes to the talk of selfish DPS jobs should do more damage, except a job like MCH since it is easier... the thing to keep in mind is... all jobs are easier** than they used to be. There is no more stance dancing for healers and tanks. There's no more random procs for MCH skills. Mudra casts were cleaned up. SAM has less APM than they used to. No more TP starvation from using AOEs as a physical DPS. Less positionals (looking at you MNK and DRG). And the list goes on and on.

So, lets not talk about "difficulty" of doing DPS in a heavily watered down MMO. What used to make this game difficult has been stripped away. Today's SAM might as well be as difficult as yesterday's MCH.



**Excluding newer jobs since we don't have earlier expansion to compare them to.

[Mithron]

Honestly I think DNC is way easier than MCH, having to time your Hypercharge to not clip Drill/Air Anchor/Chainsaw is far more difficult than pressing Standard Step and Technical Step on cooldown and not clipping Esprit. I specifically play DNC when I feel like having an EZ mode DPS with low effort, much moreso than MCH.

[Foinhas]

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). This could be counterbalanced by the utility that RDM provides, right? The problem is RDM utility is very lackluster right now. This is something that RDM mains have been complainign since 6.0, but every single time we get shot down by the community to the point that devs just don't get the necessary feedback about this job. So PLEASE do not shut us down this time so the devs can look at the job for the first time in nine months and realize there are probems that need to be fixed, because right now, playing RezMachineGoesVrrrr.lol just isn't fun.

[Ransu]

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

[CKNovel]

Right now the job that contributes the least damage wise is RDM (i know MCH mains are going to try and refute this, but rdps is not the best way to measure MCH damage). .

-> Recently joined
-> RDM OTP
-> Doesn't play high end content
Hmmmmmm.

No.
rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

As for the utility, MCH only brings tacticians which is also brought by DNC and BRD under their own names.

Can we just let this thread die already? FireMage is clearly a troll.

Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

[Mithron]

rDPS shows how the job can contribute to the team total damage.
You don't use rDPS to evaluate the damage of the job, but its damage contribution to the party.
To evaluate the damage of a job, you use nDPS which removes all external buffs. In short it would be the damage you deal in solo deep dungeon for example.
Needless to say it's not a value we can work with as the game content is mainly done in a party of 4 or 8.

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

Topics already dead.
Best we can do is dunking on troll arguments.

It's still important to discuss these things as they are important topics that need discussing. We have enough executive function with our prefrontal cortex to ignore him and continue discussing what matters.

[Kabooa]

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

This is the point of the thread.

Asking that question and whether or not the justifications still hold weight.

My own thought was that the Devs work within a framework that is outdated (And wasn't very good to begin with.) Our current framework is the simplified Cross Class system, where instead of leveling multiple jobs to complete the kit of one, they took what were effectively the cross class actions considered necessary outside of damage buffs and place them into the "Roles" and then divided the jobs into those roles based on their basic playstyle, aka Melee, Caster, and Marksman (Physical ranged).

In other words, this frame work is the same one we've used since A Realm Reborn, and despite whatever fond memories longstanding players have for ARR and HW, once you expand the scope of class design outside of FF14, this game, at its best, has never been more than acceptable in that regard. (Opinion, mine.)

Every fix, every change, is done within this framework for them to minimize development time so they can keep pushing out content.

The framework has to change, because the changes we're seeing necessitate changes to jobs that break the current framework. It isn't a "right now" solution, it's a "From now and moving on" process. I stated as much in an older post before the shit wading started.

Upping potencies is what is traditionally done, but we've been upping potencies for years and keep arriving at the same problems. I have been, and still am, completely exhausted of seeing the same bandages patch up the bleeding in one area just to see it start up somewhere else. The problem isn't at the top, it's deeper, and until they see it suitable to take the time to change that, we will see this problem continue on, especially as more jobs are added.

[Ivtrix]

So why is SAM rDPS so high while MCH is so low, then? I just don't understand the math that will justify that.

That is the crux issue right?

The general consensus is the variables that SE uses to tune what you would I guess call "intangibles" (melee vs ranged, aggregate buffs/utility brought, etc) doesnt make sense compared to what we see via 3rd party analysis of job performance + anecdotal/analysis of a DPS's role within the team and within the encounter.