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  1. #1
    Player
    Realism_Snide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    58
    Character
    Leih'li Molkot
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90

    Please Bring Back DoTs and Debuffs

    Just throwing my thoughts in a thread in the extremely rare chance that the devs see this. And just to voice my own displeasures with job changes in DPS ever since the start of Shadowbringers.

    In all of the job fantasies out there in fantasy games, my favourite one to play as are annoyers. The ones where you watch your opponents die by stacking DoTs on them, or stop them in their tracks or make them more vulnerable with debuffs helpful to the whole party like slows, or lowering the boss' damage and defense. I enjoy managing all of those things, and I love being this annoying thorn in the boss' side that they just can't get rid of, and it makes me sad that the dev team is slowly phasing them out of the game with each patch and expansion. Slowly whittling away my favorit job fantasy.

    Sure, there are still a lot of jobs with DoTs, but they only have 1. With the exception of BRD, and old SMN. But neither of their gameplays revolves around managing their DoTs anymore, if ever.

    As for debuffs, the only one that exists nowadays on a DPS is Trick Attack (a defense down debuff), and the way it is now, it's practically written all over it that its gonna get the axe soon, and be replaced by the less satisfying Mug. Tanks have Reprisal and other damage down skills, but tank rotations are so simple they bore me, and GNB's big explosions just aren't my cup of tea.

    So far, there isn't a single job to comes even close to the satisfaction that an annoyer brings to me. Invulning or kitchen sink-ing tank busters is the closest thing, but other wise, I find tanks boring to play (or just aren't my cup of tea). I can' heal to save anyone's life, and none of the existing DPS fulfill that job fantasy. I expected NIN would (cause every other ninja in rpg games DoT and debuff bosses) but FFXIV's NIN just looks more and more like a melee RDM with each expansion. :/ I don't care that its dps is terrible for balancing purposes. I just want a dps job that can whittle down a boss's HP bar with DoT management, and has a hefty debuffing kit.
    (31)

  2. #2
    Player
    Flana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    195
    Character
    Kana Kharanku
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 100
    Nothing quite brings me pleasure like doting up an enemy and watching them slowly die. There's just nothing like it. We need a DoT job, but the direction SE is going I doubt we'll get one. A shame, that's such a fun archtype to fill.
    (17)

  3. #3
    Player
    Sasori86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Posts
    9
    Character
    Nyx S'rosya
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 55
    Quote Originally Posted by Flana View Post
    Nothing quite brings me pleasure like doting up an enemy and watching them slowly die. There's just nothing like it. We need a DoT job, but the direction SE is going I doubt we'll get one. A shame, that's such a fun archtype to fill.

    Me too, I hope one shows up like the way they did Madness Sorcerer in SWTOR
    (0)
    Last edited by Sasori86; 11-22-2022 at 03:36 AM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Fryfor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    78
    Character
    Fryfor Small
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    You are literally never going to get class based debuffs back that isn't trick attack.

    Stop.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,363
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Fryfor View Post
    You are literally never going to get class based debuffs back that isn't trick attack.

    Stop.
    I mean chain exists
    (13)

  6. #6
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    OP: They MIGHT someday make a new DoT Job - some people have argued that was part of their goal with all the pruning of DoTs used by existing Jobs and removing them from SMN entirely - but it's really hard to say since they also gave their reasoning as being opposed to DoTs (I don't remember the exact quote/reference, but it was something about it being more taxing server-side)

    So it's hard to see them going back on that SO SOON.

    Note the capitalized words. They tend to reconsider or somewhat go back on things over time. The game's systems/combat has changed over time. ARR/HW, SB, and ShB/EW have all had somewhat different encounter designs, mechanics, and Job designs, with some Jobs getting complete reworks if they were incompatible with the "new" model (SEE: BRD going into SB, SCH and MCH going into ShB, MNK and NIN in ShB, SMN going into EW, PLD in EW, etc; AST in basically every expansion, sometimes in the middle of them...)

    So it's possible in 7.0, they decide to move back away from the 2 min business and go back towards the SB direction (which I would love; imo, that was the sweet spot/golden era in terms of Job designs, if not balance), which WOULD then allow for a more DoT focused Job. Though even if they DO go more in the SB direction, it doesn't guarantee one. And we aren't even guaranteed that direction, it's just kind of my personal hope that is maybe shared by others, but who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    I mean chain exists
    Let's be real here: That's just because the Devs haven't figured out how to make a party buff that boosts Crit by 5%, but only crit CHANCE not crit DAMAGE (like a straight buff to the crit stat overall would do). As soon as they figure that out, Chain Strategem will become like Divination.

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lustre View Post
    Ain't even just DoTs, all of the things that make RPGs what they are have been lost over time. Resistances, elements, debuffs, even stats dont really matter outside of week 1 savage and maybe ultimates. I hear people talk about old abilities and they sound so much more interesting than what we have now. All skills are losing their flavour over time, I've noticed it and I've only been around for one expansion. God knows how people who've been around since ARR feel
    I mean, it's not all bad, nor unique to FFXIV. WoW's been around a long time, and seen the same thing, too. They've gone through something like 4 (maybe 5, I haven't played in 2 expansions and likely won't again) rounds of pruning abilities, and the only really out of the box abilities that still exist are because they're (a) completely useless in combat and (b) so iconic it would hurt too much to remove them (e.g. Shaman Farsight; and I think even that was nerfed)

    It seems to be happening in every MMO, and in RPGs more generally (and gaming even more generally) as focus shifts over time away from RP and flavor and more to everything being in service to combat, with social type abilities being relegated to emotes instead. Like FFXIV's Performance is cool, but in some old games like Star Wars Galaxies, you could actually have people perform that buffed people, and likewise Bards in Everquest. I don't know if "dumbing down" is the right term, but "the dumbing down" of MMOs, RPGs, gaming, and society/entertainment in general just seems to be the way of the future. (I personally hope it's not, but...we live in a world that likes instant gratification, mobile games, etc etc...)

    I've been playing since...2.3 or so? Whatever patch was the one before NIN. Most of the changes were so gradual over time, it wasn't super noticeable, but when I compare now to then directly, it is kind of crazy.

    Cross-class skills where you had to level other classes to get them (e.g. leveling THM to get Swiftcast) - or even just leveling one class to 30 and another to 15 in order to even get the Jobs unlocked (and how that limited what Cross-class stuff you could equip) is so lost now.

    Not so much elemental resistances, though - that was never really used at all in 2.0.

    FFXI (which FFXIV 1.0 was strongly based on) is still in operation, though, and I hear does a lot of that stuff. But it's too hard for me to get into considering the full price sub and that everyone just says level with Trusts - which defeats the point of a group-focused old school MMO experience to me, honestly...
    (2)
    Last edited by Renathras; 09-26-2022 at 05:23 PM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,570
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Nothing I want to add to the conversation, other than clearing up something...
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    Let's be real here: That's just because the Devs haven't figured out how to make a party buff that boosts Crit by 5%, but only crit CHANCE not crit DAMAGE (like a straight buff to the crit stat overall would do). As soon as they figure that out, Chain Strategem will become like Divination.
    This already exists. Three times in the current version of the game, actually.





    In fact, we had buffs like Straight Shot granting +10% crit rate while maintained for 30 seconds, which got removed though.

    So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.
    (9)

  8. #8
    Player
    Absurdity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    2,949
    Character
    Tiana Vestoria
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    This already exists. Three times in the current version of the game, actually.


    In fact, we had buffs like Straight Shot granting +10% crit rate while maintained for 30 seconds, which got removed though.

    So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.
    Not exactly sure where he was going with that either, these buffs have always only increased critical hit CHANCE, never critical hit damage. That was exactly the reason why they reworked guaranteed critical/direct hit abilities to gain bonus damage under these buffs, because things like Battle Litany or Battle Voice did literally nothing for Warrior before.
    (6)

  9. #9
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Nothing I want to add to the conversation, other than clearing up something...

    So no, Chain Stratagem will not turn into a "crit rate version of Divination" just for being a debuff.
    Fair enough. No idea then. Devs work in strange ways.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player
    Beddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    274
    Character
    Titania Chevalier
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Renathras View Post
    OP: They MIGHT someday make a new DoT Job - some people have argued that was part of their goal with all the pruning of DoTs used by existing Jobs and removing them from SMN entirely - but it's really hard to say since they also gave their reasoning as being opposed to DoTs (I don't remember the exact quote/reference, but it was something about it being more taxing server-side)
    I'm pretty sure I've seen the same thing, but a bit of Googling ain't giving me any results. Either way, I see the following problems with DoT Mages:
    1. Too taxing server-side apparently
    2. There is a hard cap to how many debuffs an enemy can have. While Roulette content isn't going to hit the hard cap of 60 debuffs, it's likely it will be hit in Hunt Trains. Most people would consider Hunt Trains a big ol' "who gives a shit", but SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't properly participate in a piece of content
    3. There is a visibility issue since only 30 debuffs can be seen at a time. If you're a DoT Mage then your DoT timers can end up getting hidden which would make it harder to do your Job. This is only likely to happen in Alliance Raids, but again, SE would probably consider it a failure if a DoT Mage couldn't do their Job properly due to a lack of information
    4. A DoT Mage would be a sustained DPS Job by nature. Rather than dumping everything into a two minute burst window, they'd be constantly applying and renewing debuffs on a target. Problem is, that kind of gameplay goes against the two minute buff window SE has worked themselves into. All raid buffs are on the two minute window, majority of Jobs are bursting on the two minute window, and there's only what, two sustained DPS Jobs left? Just PLD and BLM now, yeah? And PLD is probably getting shafted into the two minute burst window in 6.3 anyways. Point is, SE wants everything happening in the two minute burst window so it's easier to balance (), a DoT Mage would fall outside of that design goal
    5. SE in general just kinda hates debuffs. SCH and SMN used to be the DoT Mages, but they've lost all that. BRD used to rely on their DoTs for Repertoire procs and a stronger Sidewinder, but that's all gone. NIN lost Shadow Fang, WHM lost Aero III, etc. DoTs are just being culled in general, and I wouldn't be surprised if 7.0 sees BRD down to a single DoT as well

    There is a chance SE could rework their system so debuffs aren't taxing on the servers. There is a chance SE could rework their system to increase the debuff cap and make a large amount of debuffs visible. There is a chance SE could shift their Job design away from the two minute burst window and allow for more sustained DPS Jobs. Unfortunately, I don't see any of that happening, and I'll be amazed if they ever make a proper DoT Mage.
    (5)

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