Ideas For a Paladin Rework

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

The way CASUAL fights are designed now is that damage doesn't matter too much because you rarely see DPS checks mechanics (like a exploding add or a shield that need to break) and the fight doesn't have an enrage, boss damage to tanks are really low, boss' buster are pathetic, you can survive even if you don't press a single mitigation button, but if you play right it does very little damage. So if you are going to buff PLD block to mitigate more damage or give a OP mitigation skill(to be the mitigation tank) you'll take 0 damage from the boss and make the healer useless, doesn't make sense to exclude a role like that when WAR healing made a lot of healers mad cause they felt useless.
Savage/Ultimate fights are a complete different thing, you need good damage to clear every fight, and you need mitigation for busters and raid wide aoes, this is where PLD feels weak or clunky, you have less choice of personal mit, and both your party mit are awkward to use (wings everyone have to be together and behind you, and Veil only works with a heal).
Things that made PLD special in the past was removed or made irrelevant, Cover was fantastic but never NEEDED(you had 20% mit), PLD had a anti-knockback berfore arms length and worked with cover (now everyone has anti-knockback), HG ignored secondary effect from busters like weakness and bleed.

>For the PLD, what mostly raiders want is:
A better defensive option, because of stuff like bleeding and ultimates destroying PLD;
HG to have a reduced CD, because they removed the possiblity to ignored secondary effects
Cover to be stronger, because your intervention is just a better 50 gauge skill
Damage to be as good as DRK/GNB, because you don't want to feel like you're griefing your group when you wipe at a 0.1% enrage

>What most casual players ask:
A job that feels really strong on the defense side
A job that have a unique feeling when playing, like a tank that protect others
Avoid homogenization

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.

Well said, couldn't have said it better myself, though in Ultimate and Savage done by statics, Passage and Veil are less clunky since most groups will be more co-ordinated, but in every other content it can be hit or miss.

[Rithy255]

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.

I generally agree, that the aim should be to please both hardcore and casual players, when I was talking about a damage difference, I think tanks generally should be 1% of each other, what I'd generally like is PLD to be the lowest but in general have strong defense and great utility as a tank, even if that's not the case and my ideal isn't always going to be the case, I'd want PLD to at least be on par with the others defensively

I don't really think PLD being "lowest damage" would really hurt it aslong as it's not a significant enough difference, I rather PLD feel fun defensively and have a good rotation personally then have top "meta" damage.

[Elizasylen]

What if instead of another copypasta 2min burst job they double down on the Defensive Support theme. Yeah you won't beat any GNB DRK on damage but Them utility will carry so hard. Like some heavy handed LB3 cheesing Czechs 2 kind of stuff that make them specifically more desirable in parties like PFs that are less organized and can really swing the fight in the party's favor.

Warriors have bloodwhetting. They heal on attack, you know what Holy Sheltron now heals you whenever you block.
A trait that heals you for the amount of damage you block over 12 seconds.
Clemency is a small Cure 3 size AoE.
Divine Veil affects the Paladin and heals everyone.
Cover automatically decrease damage taken by 30%, also heals target and paladin for 900 potency.
Wings damage reduction up'ed to 20% also heal overtime like Sacred Soil and Asylum.
50% more healing potency on Holy Spirit/Circle and Conf and Blades of combos.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Yea, all of this...utterly and completely trash and unbalanced. And everything will leave Paladin worse off than it currently is. All that useless utility suggested will have 0 impact, because DRK and GNB comps will be able to get through every fight without any of that, while shitting all over the damage output that Paladin would be reduced to, just to accommodate all of that useless utility.

In a single player game go nuts, in an mmo where balance is key, and as triggered as the casuals are about this next line, "DPS is king."

If a job can't pull it's weight in damage it's useless. If you say it let's healers DPS more, healers barely lose DPS on most fights if they know how to play. There is such an over bloated oGCD suite for every healer. Also, tanks currently do more DPS than healers, so, it's a bigger loss to get healers more dps uptime, than they already have, if tanks have to sacrifice theirs to facilitate in the long run.

Honestly, more thought should be put into your ideas, while Paladin lacks personal mitigation, it does not for group mitigation. The only other issue is it's damage output in aDPS, and it's ability to perform in the 2minute burst meta.

Honestly Paladin needs minor tweaks, and the 2 minute burst meta needs tossed off of the tallest building possible and left to rot somewhere that isn't XIV, and we revert back to SB or ShB era of buff windows and rotations.

[esra01]

I really don't get why people always advocate for PLD to have more mitigation tool. PLD already have its 3rd mitigation button in form of Intervention. Plus it have the biggest % mitigation in the game, Holy Shelltron being a 20% + 15% with Intervention being 20%+10%, they are both the 1st and 2nd biggest % mitigation button compared to all tanks. While Holy Shelltron 20% doesn't block DoT but you have to consider that giving Intervention to your co-tank makes them take almost 0 damage from DoT. This creates a situation where your co-tank needs 0 healing and so your healer can focus more of their resource on the PLD instead which fits in the job fantasy of PLD being the "protector" tank.

To prove my point if you check Damage Taken stats, a tank comp with PLD in it that actively uses Intervention on each tankbuster they would actually be taking less damage compared to any other tank comp that doesn't have PLD in it. The damage gets even lower if the co-tank gives PLD their personal mit

[Rithy255]

Not Like Intervention is the shared equivalent of just using a something like HOC or TBN on a party member... wait it is but it's slightly worse then the one for yourself.. that's great! Even storing 2 so you can use one on the MT and self is so redundant, Warrior gets the heal effect on both and the MIT for the MT, they could just use rampart and that's a better effect, lets ignore that drk can use oblation and TBN and gunbreaker can use auora and HOC.

Intervention isn't a 3rd CD, it's just Holy shelltron for a friend enough said.


I guess people also want to argue that giving pld actual utility and defensives that would make it strong in that department is a bad thing? I rather PLD actually be fun as a "tank" and the way the job is meant to be, rather then some job that "got good damage", I couldn't care less if PLD was 1% behind DRK and was fun from a rotational standpoint and was good defensively, it would make the job actually more fun.

All people want is "high damage numbers" not a actual fun job, it's gotten to the point even tank roles can't even have diversity anymore, it all has to be about damage. I'm sure it really matters to some people that they will be a tiny bit behind the DRK. But most people just want a fun job, the only reason why PLD's rotation is getting changed is because people pushed for all jobs to be closer and closer in damage which leads to stuff like 120 raid buffs because people complain and complain until everything fulfils the same role and does the same damage.

Edit: Not against damage numbers being somewhat close (I want all jobs to feel good), but theirs always going to be a difference, It's pretty obvious that people still take jobs for utility and mobility not just damage, SMN has a way higher play rate then BLM, because it's so much more easier to use, mobile and has utility.

[Elizasylen]

I agree that output is the only thing that matters but at this point we’re talking about losing the Paladin job identity. I don’t mind doing less than the other tanks in output when they give tools that make me feel good about playing the job itself. I think strengthening support helps retain the inherent job fantasy about a sword and shield character.

[Rithy255]

I agree that output is the only thing that matters but at this point we’re talking about losing the Paladin job identity. I don’t mind doing less than the other tanks in output when they give tools that make me feel good about playing the job itself. I think strengthening support helps retain the inherent job fantasy about a sword and shield character.

Output sure matters I just think, over things can matter.
Like if a tank is 1% behind that's fine, I think it's alright if a certain job does more then another job of it's category, If it's more then 1-2% it becomes questionable, I think it's fine to want PLD's (even warriors) output further buffed.

I personally dislike how Paladin the job that's meant to be and generally always is about party protection and high defensives, is the job with really bad defensives in comparison and "meh" utility, I don't see how buffing PLD's defensives to be more in line or even better in some situations is a "bad" thing, I enjoy the job from rotational and looks I just wish the defensives were actually looked at, Cover hasn't been touched in two expansions despite being useless on PLD.

I felt a bit annoyed that everything is becoming Damage focused because now PLD's rotation is likely going to suck it's defensives are already pretty bad and I'll just end up moving to another tank like Gunbreaker, I think it's fine if certain jobs aren't "meta" if it means we can have more intresting jobs and design, "120" windows was added so no job was falling behind in certain fights, we should be wanting more diverse kits more diverse buffs and utility for the game, not only focus on "da damage"

Of course damage balancing is Very Important but dismissing any change that isn't "damage" focused is also just unhealthy to the game, it's fine if a job performs slightly worse then another in damage output, but has higher utility or something as a trade off.

[Elizasylen]

Output sure matters I just think, over things can matter.
Like if a tank is 1% behind that's fine, I think it's alright if a certain job does more then another job of it's category, If it's more then 1-2% it becomes questionable, I think it's fine to want PLD's (even warriors) output further buffed.

I personally dislike how Paladin the job that's meant to be and generally always is about party protection and high defensives, is the job with really bad defensives in comparison and "meh" utility, I don't see how buffing PLD's defensives to be more in line or even better in some situations is a "bad" thing, I enjoy the job from rotational and looks I just wish the defensives were actually looked at, Cover hasn't been touched in two expansions despite being useless on PLD.

I felt a bit annoyed that everything is becoming Damage focused because now PLD's rotation is likely going to suck it's defensives are already pretty bad and I'll just end up moving to another tank like Gunbreaker, I think it's fine if certain jobs aren't "meta" if it means we can have more intresting jobs and design, "120" windows was added so no job was falling behind in certain fights, we should be wanting more diverse kits more diverse buffs and utility for the game, not only focus on "da damage"

Of course damage balancing is Very Important but dismissing any change that isn't "damage" focused is also just unhealthy to the game, it's fine if a job performs slightly worse then another in damage output, but has higher utility or something as a trade off.

Though the suggestions i offered were exaggerated and heavy handed the intentions were to lean into the more carry support role. Something that would offer utilities that helped forgive mistakes in less organized PF scenarios. While not lagging too hard in output. Yes not preferred by the high end speed killers but has a niche in making a fight slightly more forgiving to mistakes that would otherwise be completely fatal. Sometimes it’s not about the numbers but doing something cool and saving a run. Just like healer LB3 or a Tank LB3.

[Rithy255]

Though the suggestions i offered were exaggerated and heavy handed the intentions were to lean into the more carry support role. Something that would offer utilities that helped forgive mistakes in less organized PF scenarios. While not lagging too hard in output. Yes not preferred by the high end speed killers but has a niche in making a fight slightly more forgiving to mistakes that would otherwise be completely fatal. Sometimes it’s not about the numbers but doing something cool and saving a run. Just like healer LB3 or a Tank LB3.

Eh DV change should be a thing, Cover needs a overhaul that version might be too strong tbf, Wings need a general change I rather they work similar to white mage wings, I rather PLD get a OCGD healing ability and holyspirt/blades combos nerfed, as I don't like that a lot of your sustain is currently tied to damage rotation