Ideas For a Paladin Rework

[Rithy255]

1) Except that is not how it should be. Every tank should be viable at every level, this applies to all jobs across all roles.

2) They are defensive first damage later. All tanks have the defensive side covered, so it is down to the damage to determine whether you want to take a tank or not. Weirdly enough, the best the tanks have been is in ShB, where the tanks done similar damage to each other.

3) There needs to be some level of homogenization. Every tank needs the defensive kit to do an encounter. If they don't, they won't be used, which goes against the whole 'every job can clear every content'.

4) At the moment, only because of the damage difference, which is probably a non issue now with better gear, however, as mentioned, ShB was the best state the tanks have been in.

Currently PLD doesn't really match the other tanks in utility or defensive, has the most complicated rotation and worser damage (tied with war but thats generally give or take depending on the fight, wars a much better tank).

Theirs some truth to keep tanks close enough to each other, but theirs a point where you want diversions and more reason then "more damage = better" Keeping tanks diverse and having different strengths and weaknesses keeps things more diverse, I rather play a "unbalanced" game that has more options then a balanced game where the only real option or defining feature is flavour.

I believe you could give tanks such as PLD a slight defensive and utility advantage while keeping it a bit below the top dpsing tanks, It really wouldn't break the game considering most DPS checks are designed to compensate for "less performing jobs", I guess p8s pre nerf was a example where people actually switched off warrior and paladin, but I see why generally people are going to want to reduce the room for utility vs damage even more even on tanks everyone will want them to have the same utility. I rather live in a world where the games more intresting with jobs, we should want justice for jobs such as Machinist and even reaper and red mage but we should avoid trying to make the jobs even less interesting then they already are, we should embrace a bit of job diversity and tools that make different jobs stand out.

[Khan_Sado]

The way CASUAL fights are designed now is that damage doesn't matter too much because you rarely see DPS checks mechanics (like a exploding add or a shield that need to break) and the fight doesn't have an enrage, boss damage to tanks are really low, boss' buster are pathetic, you can survive even if you don't press a single mitigation button, but if you play right it does very little damage. So if you are going to buff PLD block to mitigate more damage or give a OP mitigation skill(to be the mitigation tank) you'll take 0 damage from the boss and make the healer useless, doesn't make sense to exclude a role like that when WAR healing made a lot of healers mad cause they felt useless.
Savage/Ultimate fights are a complete different thing, you need good damage to clear every fight, and you need mitigation for busters and raid wide aoes, this is where PLD feels weak or clunky, you have less choice of personal mit, and both your party mit are awkward to use (wings everyone have to be together and behind you, and Veil only works with a heal).
Things that made PLD special in the past was removed or made irrelevant, Cover was fantastic but never NEEDED(you had 20% mit), PLD had a anti-knockback berfore arms length and worked with cover (now everyone has anti-knockback), HG ignored secondary effect from busters like weakness and bleed.

>For the PLD, what mostly raiders want is:
A better defensive option, because of stuff like bleeding and ultimates destroying PLD;
HG to have a reduced CD, because they removed the possiblity to ignored secondary effects
Cover to be stronger, because your intervention is just a better 50 gauge skill
Damage to be as good as DRK/GNB, because you don't want to feel like you're griefing your group when you wipe at a 0.1% enrage

>What most casual players ask:
A job that feels really strong on the defense side
A job that have a unique feeling when playing, like a tank that protect others
Avoid homogenization

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

The way CASUAL fights are designed now is that damage doesn't matter too much because you rarely see DPS checks mechanics (like a exploding add or a shield that need to break) and the fight doesn't have an enrage, boss damage to tanks are really low, boss' buster are pathetic, you can survive even if you don't press a single mitigation button, but if you play right it does very little damage. So if you are going to buff PLD block to mitigate more damage or give a OP mitigation skill(to be the mitigation tank) you'll take 0 damage from the boss and make the healer useless, doesn't make sense to exclude a role like that when WAR healing made a lot of healers mad cause they felt useless.
Savage/Ultimate fights are a complete different thing, you need good damage to clear every fight, and you need mitigation for busters and raid wide aoes, this is where PLD feels weak or clunky, you have less choice of personal mit, and both your party mit are awkward to use (wings everyone have to be together and behind you, and Veil only works with a heal).
Things that made PLD special in the past was removed or made irrelevant, Cover was fantastic but never NEEDED(you had 20% mit), PLD had a anti-knockback berfore arms length and worked with cover (now everyone has anti-knockback), HG ignored secondary effect from busters like weakness and bleed.

>For the PLD, what mostly raiders want is:
A better defensive option, because of stuff like bleeding and ultimates destroying PLD;
HG to have a reduced CD, because they removed the possiblity to ignored secondary effects
Cover to be stronger, because your intervention is just a better 50 gauge skill
Damage to be as good as DRK/GNB, because you don't want to feel like you're griefing your group when you wipe at a 0.1% enrage

>What most casual players ask:
A job that feels really strong on the defense side
A job that have a unique feeling when playing, like a tank that protect others
Avoid homogenization

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.

Well said, couldn't have said it better myself, though in Ultimate and Savage done by statics, Passage and Veil are less clunky since most groups will be more co-ordinated, but in every other content it can be hit or miss.

[Rithy255]

Now read both hardcore/casual player needs, they don't conflict with each other, you can have PLD pleasing both sides, you don't need to crap PLD damage to give it more defensive options, you don't need to make PLD a OGCD spammer like DRK to do more burst damage, I don't now why some of you want to tax PLD so bad, you can have a job with good offense and defense, GNB and DRK are completly different to each other and both are great in every content, damage and defense, STOP fighting agaisnt each other and realize most of you want a job great to play in any content.

I generally agree, that the aim should be to please both hardcore and casual players, when I was talking about a damage difference, I think tanks generally should be 1% of each other, what I'd generally like is PLD to be the lowest but in general have strong defense and great utility as a tank, even if that's not the case and my ideal isn't always going to be the case, I'd want PLD to at least be on par with the others defensively

I don't really think PLD being "lowest damage" would really hurt it aslong as it's not a significant enough difference, I rather PLD feel fun defensively and have a good rotation personally then have top "meta" damage.

[Elizasylen]

What if instead of another copypasta 2min burst job they double down on the Defensive Support theme. Yeah you won't beat any GNB DRK on damage but Them utility will carry so hard. Like some heavy handed LB3 cheesing Czechs 2 kind of stuff that make them specifically more desirable in parties like PFs that are less organized and can really swing the fight in the party's favor.

Warriors have bloodwhetting. They heal on attack, you know what Holy Sheltron now heals you whenever you block.
A trait that heals you for the amount of damage you block over 12 seconds.
Clemency is a small Cure 3 size AoE.
Divine Veil affects the Paladin and heals everyone.
Cover automatically decrease damage taken by 30%, also heals target and paladin for 900 potency.
Wings damage reduction up'ed to 20% also heal overtime like Sacred Soil and Asylum.
50% more healing potency on Holy Spirit/Circle and Conf and Blades of combos.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Yea, all of this...utterly and completely trash and unbalanced. And everything will leave Paladin worse off than it currently is. All that useless utility suggested will have 0 impact, because DRK and GNB comps will be able to get through every fight without any of that, while shitting all over the damage output that Paladin would be reduced to, just to accommodate all of that useless utility.

In a single player game go nuts, in an mmo where balance is key, and as triggered as the casuals are about this next line, "DPS is king."

If a job can't pull it's weight in damage it's useless. If you say it let's healers DPS more, healers barely lose DPS on most fights if they know how to play. There is such an over bloated oGCD suite for every healer. Also, tanks currently do more DPS than healers, so, it's a bigger loss to get healers more dps uptime, than they already have, if tanks have to sacrifice theirs to facilitate in the long run.

Honestly, more thought should be put into your ideas, while Paladin lacks personal mitigation, it does not for group mitigation. The only other issue is it's damage output in aDPS, and it's ability to perform in the 2minute burst meta.

Honestly Paladin needs minor tweaks, and the 2 minute burst meta needs tossed off of the tallest building possible and left to rot somewhere that isn't XIV, and we revert back to SB or ShB era of buff windows and rotations.

[esra01]

I really don't get why people always advocate for PLD to have more mitigation tool. PLD already have its 3rd mitigation button in form of Intervention. Plus it have the biggest % mitigation in the game, Holy Shelltron being a 20% + 15% with Intervention being 20%+10%, they are both the 1st and 2nd biggest % mitigation button compared to all tanks. While Holy Shelltron 20% doesn't block DoT but you have to consider that giving Intervention to your co-tank makes them take almost 0 damage from DoT. This creates a situation where your co-tank needs 0 healing and so your healer can focus more of their resource on the PLD instead which fits in the job fantasy of PLD being the "protector" tank.

To prove my point if you check Damage Taken stats, a tank comp with PLD in it that actively uses Intervention on each tankbuster they would actually be taking less damage compared to any other tank comp that doesn't have PLD in it. The damage gets even lower if the co-tank gives PLD their personal mit

[Rithy255]

Not Like Intervention is the shared equivalent of just using a something like HOC or TBN on a party member... wait it is but it's slightly worse then the one for yourself.. that's great! Even storing 2 so you can use one on the MT and self is so redundant, Warrior gets the heal effect on both and the MIT for the MT, they could just use rampart and that's a better effect, lets ignore that drk can use oblation and TBN and gunbreaker can use auora and HOC.

Intervention isn't a 3rd CD, it's just Holy shelltron for a friend enough said.


I guess people also want to argue that giving pld actual utility and defensives that would make it strong in that department is a bad thing? I rather PLD actually be fun as a "tank" and the way the job is meant to be, rather then some job that "got good damage", I couldn't care less if PLD was 1% behind DRK and was fun from a rotational standpoint and was good defensively, it would make the job actually more fun.

All people want is "high damage numbers" not a actual fun job, it's gotten to the point even tank roles can't even have diversity anymore, it all has to be about damage. I'm sure it really matters to some people that they will be a tiny bit behind the DRK. But most people just want a fun job, the only reason why PLD's rotation is getting changed is because people pushed for all jobs to be closer and closer in damage which leads to stuff like 120 raid buffs because people complain and complain until everything fulfils the same role and does the same damage.

Edit: Not against damage numbers being somewhat close (I want all jobs to feel good), but theirs always going to be a difference, It's pretty obvious that people still take jobs for utility and mobility not just damage, SMN has a way higher play rate then BLM, because it's so much more easier to use, mobile and has utility.

[esra01]

Not Like Intervention is the shared equivalent of just using a something like HOC or TBN on a party member... wait it is but it's slightly worse then the one for yourself.. that's great! Even storing 2 so you can use one on the MT and self is so redundant, Warrior gets the heal effect on both and the MIT for the MT, they could just use rampart and that's a better effect, lets ignore that drk can use oblation and TBN and gunbreaker can use auora and HOC.

Intervention isn't a 3rd CD, it's just Holy shelltron for a friend enough said.

Alright look, I think both of us are not talking on the same page here, even though we are talking about the same mitigation, I don't think we have the same content in mind. My previous comment is written with my previous experience in savage and ultimate content, where both tanks are going to take 250.000 damage in a single hit ( DSR ) or a 110.000 Tankbuster Damage followed by 33.000 x 5 DoT damage that totals to 275.000 Damage (P7S). If we are talking about that level of content, then PLD quite surprisingly have better mitigation tools compared to WAR/DRK/GNB in a single large hit tankbuster, and for DoT based tankbuster PLD is still beating DRK/GNB with WAR only be able to beat PLD if Thrill of Battle is off cooldown.

I also have the numbers to back up my statement that Intervention isn't just a Holy Shelltron for a friend. If you are willing to discuss it further then I would be happy to crunch the numbers for you

[Rithy255]

Alright look, I think both of us are not talking on the same page here, even though we are talking about the same mitigation, I don't think we have the same content in mind. My previous comment is written with my previous experience in savage and ultimate content, where both tanks are going to take 250.000 damage in a single hit ( DSR ) or a 110.000 Tankbuster Damage followed by 33.000 x 5 DoT damage that totals to 275.000 Damage (P7S). If we are talking about that level of content, then PLD quite surprisingly have better mitigation tools compared to WAR/DRK/GNB in a single large hit tankbuster, and for DoT based tankbuster PLD is still beating DRK/GNB with WAR only be able to beat PLD if Thrill of Battle is off cooldown.

I also have the numbers to back up my statement that Intervention isn't just a Holy Shelltron for a friend. If you are willing to discuss it further then I would be happy to crunch the numbers for you

I don't think You can view Intervention as a extra because it's so heavily tied to Holy Shelltron, If you split HOC or TBN one that has a similar effect, both share the same Cooldown on a ally, while on paper it would be a extra CD, it's really not, if you made Holy shelltron targetable and removed intervention they would bassically serve the same purpose as it currently does (maybe reduce the recast to be 2 seconds).

Storing Oath at 100, is generally like having 2 stacks of your Gauge spenders, you can spread out its uses to both tanks but it will also take longer to get both back, of course it's a massive benefit and I won't try to underplay it, I wouldn't know the exact numbers but people generally say PLD takes the most general damage out of all the tanks.

Would be nice to know the exact numbers, To be fair I haven't played ultimate content PLD's mitigations are pretty different that it might work out better in some sorts of content, But generally what I've heard is that PLD's the weakest tank and it does generally seem to show, It's undeniable that some of its "advantages" are very situational and clunky, abilites such as cover exist, DV while strong doesn't need to be clunky, passage doesn't need to be either, even if it's "acceptable in x content"