Proposed changes for underperforming jobs

[Lucida3b]

Part of the problem for red mage atm is verraise conflicts with a lot of mechanics that basically make verraise useless. like devour for example

[Rithy255]

Part of the problem for red mage atm is verraise conflicts with a lot of mechanics that basically make verraise useless. like devour for example

I think we can just make it more useful in those situations instead of taking away the concept personally.

[SaberMaxwell]

I think we can just make it more useful in those situations instead of taking away the concept personally.

How, and why?

To elaborate: how? Make verraise just flat instant cast, no dualcast needed? Make it force accept the prompt so the player is forced to their feet faster? Make it reraise?

Why? We've discussed this before, and I know we disagree, but fundamentally you're advocating to make Red Mage a psuedo third healer in a game where even the healers prioritize damage. That is the implicit argument being made when you're chasing variety of function so hard in a game as trinity dps focused as XIV.

There aren't many solutions to this problem outside of giving raise as a role action, taking it from everyone, recategorizing the role and making an actual support role, or recategorizing the caster role to be rez caster and damage caster.

[Rithy255]

How, and why?

To elaborate: how? Make verraise just flat instant cast, no dualcast needed? Make it force accept the prompt so the player is forced to their feet faster? Make it reraise?

Why? We've discussed this before, and I know we disagree, but fundamentally you're advocating to make Red Mage a psuedo third healer in a game where even the healers prioritize damage. That is the implicit argument being made when you're chasing variety of function so hard in a game as trinity dps focused as XIV.

There aren't many solutions to this problem outside of giving raise as a role action, taking it from everyone, recategorizing the role and making an actual support role, or recategorizing the caster role to be rez caster and damage caster.

Well people said it's less useful in the new savage fights because of that quote I just replied to... So have less instances of that, make it more useful in those sorts of situations.

Again I don't really think it matters to you because the aim is how to simplify job mechs such as support options as raise because it doesn't "fit" Dps, While I prefer we keep general support options and not have the only different between jobs be a different reskin with the same form and function, even then the whole identity of red mage is to be a mix between black mage and white mage so it having strong support and being a good damage dealer makes sense for the job, not a pure destruction job.

Making utility more useful in progression situations or something that goes wrong, is something I view as a good thing, The game having more options and diversity in roles is a good thing even if it sacrfices "balance" why do you think 2 minute burst meta is a thing? because people complained that raid buffs weren't homogenised enough, so they made them all 120 seconds so we could have easier raid buff alignments, again changing it so "utility is for healers and tanks only!" mentality will yet again make the game more homogenised then it already is.

I rather have a game with weird jank and small imbalance then a game that is very homogenised and lacks varity and isn't fun.

Not going to argue about changing raise more then that it's a matter that people will fundamentally disagree with, I know a lot of players just want red mage to do the exact same form and function as BLM as both are DPS under the caster role, If thats where you're coming from then that's fine I really cannot argue with someone's preference especially if it's more balanced in the long run (just makes the game more dull)

[SaberMaxwell]

Less instances of 8 man vibe checks would be nice, I agree. They shouldn't be so plentiful outside of Ultimate.

Specifically though, you said (and said again) to make it "more useful in those types of situations" to which I repeat: how? The only way you could would be to make the raise faster somehow, because as it is its too slow to get people up in time. You'd be buffing their situational healing support, probably at greater cost to their actual role of dps, which to be fair I can see SE doing. But at some point just cut the losses and drop rdm into the green with healers honestly; the whole concession of this argument is that its primary identity and usefulness is a recovery tool.

Heck it'd be able to actually be a JOAT at that point since healers in XIV split between damage and healing pretty evenly.
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I'd rather have a game with weird jank and small imbalances too. We're not at small imbalance, though, we're at "this is your dps caster and these are your prog casters you wear until the group is ready to clear then you switch." and "oh yeah this was a bad idea, nerf the damage check they'll forget we let it get this bad."

It's been that way since StB honestly. Black Mage mains having to play Red Mage for prog is no better.

Arthars brought up a good point regarding this that made me chuckle. Even though BLM doesn't have raise, it is still shackled by it, because at a certain point the damage difference is so big that you'd never look at RDM or SMN anyway. They can't buff BLM to be top DPS like it should be because they don't want to buff RDM or SMN because of ease of play / raise.

Also in specific argument, no I don't want RDM to have the same form as BLM. Its disingenuous especially when I know you and I outlined a difference between "variety in function" and "variety in form" and that in making that definition I specified that variety in form is good and variety in function leads to job lockouts in pf.

[Rithy255]

Less instances of 8 man vibe checks would be nice, I agree. They shouldn't be so plentiful outside of Ultimate.

>Response to the full post just need to cut it down due to post limits.
More useful in those situations by making less fights where verraise generally conflicts with the fight design, not changing raise it's self.

I consider the imbalance (currently) not large enough if every job can still clear (with the current nerf), P8S was stretching that limit before the nerf and I think SE did the right thing but they also do need to look into jobs beyond that, I also do think it's reasonable to want to avoid being locked out of a certain job such as Machnist for low damage. we should generally strive for weaker comps to be at least viable with minimum item level, I do think theirs always going to be a difference but it's too much right now, But my question is how much are we generally going to ruin a jobs identity for the sake of "balancing", I feel like removing raise from casters or making them shared is another step at making any semblance of uniqueness gone.

They could easily buff all three jobs and phys ranged with them the gap shouldn't be so much between melees and casters, I don't think it would be as impossible to move up all jobs at least because they know "ranged tax" should be reduced if fights are more and more designed around melees.

I think you want RDM/BLM/SMN to play differently but to basically be the same job in form, how current melees work theirs never a reason outside "big DPS" to bring another melee over one, which makes it blander for me, as I generally enjoy more "support" even in a DPS class because it gives the game Varity, I think theirs more to making a Job stand out then rotation.

I don't want BLM or any caster to be locked out in general, most people won't force you to switch, but I understand why some groups would and that does suck, it's being stuck between a rock and a hard place for me as in general I want the game to be balanced and fun for all jobs, but I also don't want job identity and differences between a job to only be rotation and how the job looks, I personally rather we kept support options such as raise like I said I know not everyone will agree with that take and I don't even think it's the best for balance but it makes the game actually feel more diverse and interesting for me.

[Mithron]

I want BLM to be top DPS, no raise, limited mobility and the hardest job to optimize in the game with no raid damage buffs. That's core BLM job identity to me. It should always be that way, and any new jobs they add should be balanced to have less damage and complexity than BLM. Giving every caster a raise is just not the way to go, and lowering SMN/RDM DPS simply because they have raise is not the way to go. SMN has Searing Light, RDM has Embolden, that's why they should have less aDPS, not because of raise. I don't really see how this is hard to understand or how anyone could have any kind of other opinion.

[Rithy255]

I want BLM to be top DPS, no raise, limited mobility and the hardest job to optimize in the game with no raid damage buffs. That's core BLM job identity to me. It should always be that way, and any new jobs they add should be balanced to have less damage and complexity than BLM. Giving every caster a raise is just not the way to go, and lowering SMN/RDM DPS simply because they have raise is not the way to go. SMN has Searing Light, RDM has Embolden, that's why they should have less aDPS, not because of raise. I don't really see how this is hard to understand or how anyone could have any kind of other opinion.

So you think red mage and summoner should seriously have the same RDPS but still have way better utility, I recall you said they should be about 1% behind, which is pretty bad for current balance as BLM wouldn't really ever be used. I feel like this is the opposite "problem" I had with the other take.

At least with the other one (give blm raise or give none raise) its arguably better for balance even if it ruins my personal perspective on what generally makes a job more unique.

[SaberMaxwell]

Likewise you'll have to forgive me not quoting you, am on phone and cannot easily edit things.

So "more useful in those situations" meaning "don't have those situations." I can agree to that, again 8 man checks are not ultimate exclusive obviously but the sheer volume of them this tier was ridiculous.
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When I say "variety in form" I mean "they take different roads to reach the same destination." With that said, up or down a percent or two is fine, especially when RDM and SMN would be rDPS jobs relying on team damage while BLM wouldn't. At the moment, the goal of variety of form is achieved; RDM, BLM, and SMN do approach situations differently because the tools they have to approach situations, namely mobility and uptime, are very different. Thus playing a BLM will be a very different experience to playing a RDM. This would be true regardless of if they did similar damage to each other or if RDM arbitrarily lost verraise. Ideally SMN would go back to being like 5.X SMN where it, while still incredibly mobile, did still have to be mindful of its mobility tools, and as far as variety in form is concerned the caster role is perfect. You get to pick what you want to play based on the playstyle you want. Turret caster, "melee" caster, pet caster.

Variety in function necessarily creates situations where you eventually have jobs hard gated. Remember when Paladin was the physical defense flavor tank / "prog tank"? When SAM and MNK were locked out of parties because it not only brought no piercing debuff, but also no aggro management tools a la NIN?

Variety in function is great in single player rpgs, where the trinity is not so strongly enforced. Not so much in a mmo game like XIV, though I hear XI was much better about job identity.

[Mithron]

BLM doing 1% more DPS will make it better DPS. 1% is not the same. People will play for 1% better DPS. I don't really see how it's hard to understand or accept.