Damage "taxes" deserve serious reconsideration

[Dogempire]

Why should res tax exist? Why should any DPS tax exist outside raid damage buffs?

To justify the prejudice they treat some jobs with while propping up certain jobs within the same role to keep them above everyone else.

[Rithy255]

Why should res tax exist? Why should any DPS tax exist outside raid damage buffs?

Why should Red mage and summoner perform the same as black mage and bring objectively pretty good utility.
You just look at damage numbers and don't actually think about how it would bring no reason to play black mage over the other casters.

You either remove all utility or make BLM have the same sort of utility, which in my opinion brings down job diversity more then it already has been, which if thats your goal? sure.

[Mithron]

Why should Red mage and summoner perform the same as black mage and bring objectively pretty good utility.
You just look at damage numbers and don't actually think about how it would bring no reason to play black mage over the other casters.

You either remove all utility or make BLM have the same sort of utility, which in my opinion brings down job diversity more then it already has been, which if thats your goal? sure.

I'd rather BLM be top DPS in the game with no raid damage buffs and a job identity of low mobility hard casting. No raise. I do not think SMN and RDM should have damage tax for raise, but I do think SMN and RDM should have raid damage buffs and thus lower aDPS than BLM, and that all jobs be within 1% rDPS between each other. That way BLMs can feel good about playing their no raise playstyle and you can feel good playing your raise playstyle despite having less personal DPS and everyone be viable because you're all contributing to the same amount of total DPS. You're already losing DPS by having to raise as a SMN or RDM anyway, therefore no further penalty is needed.

[Azuri]

The wheel of balance inevitably turns and one day even BLM will get to partake of the humble pie and sit at the bottom of the dps charts. SMN and even SAM already had theirs. No one is safe from a "rework". And that will be a glorious day indeed.

[ForteNightshade]

Personally give a res as a role action with a 2 minutes CD on casters. Odds are we're getting a 4th Caster and I'm gonna be severely disappointed if they split "res caster" and "pure caster" because it'll default that RDM/SMN will never be performing like other casters.

What's sad about that potential split is it all but ensures Red Mage and Summoner die. I just don't see how they balance it when they're already overvaluing Raise. Fortunately, since Yoshida came right out and said he wanted to axe Resurrection from Summoner, I suspect they'll either leave Verraise (rip RDM) or kill off Caster rez entirely. I'd prefer the latter at this point. They just can't seem to balance around it.

The wheel of balance inevitably turns and one day even BLM will get to partake of the humble pie and sit at the bottom of the dps charts. SMN and even SAM already had theirs. No one is safe from a "rework". And that will be a glorious day indeed.

Technically, it already did. Black Mage was all but worthless in Heavensward and most of Stormblood. The former was the height of Range dominance while the latter was when they overbuffed Summoner so much, it killed even Machinist.

Which really makes you think. We once lived in a world where Summoner was a god and Machinist was meta.

[Rithy255]

Did you even read my post, you aren’t seeing more of the fight with verraise when the fights are obsessed with body check mechanics, like if more than 1 person dies to devour then verraise won’t save you on the next mechanic, yet RDM is still taxed as if the rezz is useful in this situation

ok but that's one example and im sure theirs way more of a fight having body check mechs, generally theirs been cases where you need everyone alive at one instance, in the case of that mech it wouldn't be useful but in a lot of situations having a job be able to get up someone before a body check mech happens would actually help prevent that body check mech causing a wipe in the first place.

And if we wanna argue it's a problem with raise? maybe it's just a problem with how they designed the mechanic, it would be more worth complaining about how they're invalidating raise more and more in that case.

Like I said if you want RDM/SMN/BLM all to be equal give them all raise or remove it, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Supersnow845]

ok but that's one example and im sure theirs way more of a fight having body check mechs, generally theirs been cases where you need everyone alive at one instance, in the case of that mech it wouldn't be useful but in a lot of situations having a job be able to get up someone before a body check mech happens would actually help prevent that body check mech causing a wipe in the first place.

And if we wanna argue it's a problem with raise? maybe it's just a problem with how they designed the mechanic, it would be more worth complaining about how they're invalidating raise more and more in that case.

Like I said if you want RDM/SMN/BLM all to be equal give them all raise or remove it, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Well they balance for savage, if you think the mechanic is the problem because there is too many body check mechanics which is invalidating raise that is a valid opinion, but you can’t have mechanics constantly invalidating raise (like 7 and 8 each have like 10 body check mechanics) and then tax RDM and SMN constantly for their ability to raise you either have one or the other

[Rithy255]

Well they balance for savage, if you think the mechanic is the problem because there is too many body check mechanics which is invalidating raise that is a valid opinion, but you can’t have mechanics constantly invalidating raise (like 7 and 8 each have like 10 body check mechanics) and then tax RDM and SMN constantly for their ability to raise you either have one or the other

Well I don't think we'll get anywhere with the current state I even disagree with a massive difference between casters, more or less I just find raise a pretty interesting ability theirs plently ways/solutions you can fix the difference without making Black Mage completely useless.

Any one of these would fix the current caster "problem" (Mind you adjusting so theirs less of a gap between casters is fine).
A: Reduce the amount of checks in one fight, make raise more useful, in general to justify a decent dps gap.
B: Remove raise from harder content such as Savage and extremes, They're already doing this for harder dungeons, This would also mean making the damage difference between all casters could be very small.
C: Give Black Mage a raise, All casters would again be on similar terms, BLM would prolly need a timer to avoid triple cast abuse in like a 24 man, as Mp doesn't really matter for black mage.

My main point is, if you want Red Mage/Summoner to do similar amounts of damage you can't have black mage not have any sort of utility you'd need to change something, even if raise was so useless I don't see how removing it (at least for harder content) would make people mad inturn for higher damage, when it's "useless" to those same people.

I'd personally choose A as I enjoy job diversity, but really that's my preference. It would likely be easier to balance the game where the only job utility is addle and faint, because their would be no reason to debate over a utilities usefulness, all jobs doing the same damage.

I don't think the current state is great either BLM compared to red mage and summoner is doing way too much but also compared to samurai it's doing way too little, I think the idea of the ranged tax hurts casters in general more then a raise tax, but both should generally be addressed.

[Rithy255]

I'd rather BLM be top DPS in the game with no raid damage buffs and a job identity of low mobility hard casting. No raise. I do not think SMN and RDM should have damage tax for raise, but I do think SMN and RDM should have raid damage buffs and thus lower aDPS than BLM, and that all jobs be within 1% rDPS between each other. That way BLMs can feel good about playing their no raise playstyle and you can feel good playing your raise playstyle despite having less personal DPS and everyone be viable because you're all contributing to the same amount of total DPS. You're already losing DPS by having to raise as a SMN or RDM anyway, therefore no further penalty is needed.

Ok so you just basically want no one to ever touch Black Mage because they bring zero utility and basically output the same total damage as the other two casters got it.

If you gave black mage raise they'd also lose dps for using raise your argument makes no sense, it's less of a dps loss to cast raise then to let someone tank the floor, so casting raise (if your healers can't) is unironically a total dps gain.

[Mithron]

Ok so you just basically want no one to ever touch Black Mage because they bring zero utility and basically output the same total damage as the other two casters got it.

If you gave black mage raise they'd also lose dps for using raise your argument makes no sense, it's less of a dps loss to cast raise then to let someone tank the floor, so casting raise (if your healers can't) is unironically a total dps gain.

People will continue to play and bring BLM because it does 1% more damage than other jobs due to its lack of utility and people enjoy that job fantasy. My argument still makes sense because there are no mechanics that deaths are necessary. Every death is a mistake, so if you stop making mistakes, there would be no deaths. Doing less damage on top of the time and resources necessary to cast Raise on someone, which is already enough of a DPS loss, losing more on perfect runs means it would always feel bad to play that job in farm, because you would be better off bringing whatever other job without raise tax. The 3 slots of "melee/physical ranged/caster" don't have to be fulfilled. You would simply go 3 melee or 2 phys ranged instead or whatever other combination that doesn't include casters, and always be weighing down your team by playing caster. That's not fun or good balance.