Why is it so common to join extremes without watching a guide first?

[Tiramu]

I just like not wasting the time of the other 7 people, nor my own. What's it to anyone if I watch a guide or not? And if I don't want to play with people who are going in unprepared like that, I don't have to be in the same group as them.

This just reminds me of this one time I was in Seat of Sacrifice Normal. We wiped 3 times, people weren't getting the mechanics. I told them at least what the fire/ice mechanic did. All I said was "When he casts this, it does this, when he casts that, it does that". Nothing major. I was told to calm down (???) and that the group wanted to go into the fight and figure things out themselves.

...Alright then?

We wiped one more time despite this time knowing what Fire/Ice swords did, so I just quietly left the instance. That sort of playstyle already isn't for me, and if people refuse to prepare themselves with randoms or take advice, it's really not for me.

I really don't care if it's a crutch or not. It's a videogame, I have nothing to prove. I just want to have fun.

No, nobody expects you to not read a guide. The thing some people take exception to are being called "unprepared" for not wanting to read a guide. They aren't wasting your time, just make groups where everyone is guided. People like to play blind because a lot of the time a guide will remove most if not all of the challenge from a battle. I'm not a hardcore blind player, if I come to a total loss as to what to do I will check a guide; and there have been plenty of times where I've done that and a battle has gone from being hard to being a breeze because the challenge was to figure out what you're supposed to do... actually doing that thing is easy, which makes the battle easy.

OFC, if you want your content to be easy thats fine, but calling players who want to be challenged unprepared is so far off base its unreal.

[Seera1024]

I was talking more an emotional type of crutch, of course disabilities are another thing entirely. But from what they said, I didn't get the impression it was that.

That's what I was referring to with the metaphor. Some people do need the crutch of a guide in order for the game to be fun, even if a disability isn't the cause of it.

Uh... You know, you had me at the first half... but no. No, if we're wiping this much in content and people still haven't grasped that they need to be mindful of other peoples' time, then I'm not the one at fault for not asking. Wiping 3 times warrants an explanation, because I'm not sitting around to explain one more thing if you're not going to get it. And guess what: they didn't get it! At that point it's frankly just being disrespectful.

It's not about being kind or following any code of ethics at that point. It's sheer common sense.

And your response to it may have killed the fun for those members by telling them the answer. And you don't tend to put forth as much effort into something that you're not having fun with when it comes to entertainment.

If you had asked if someone had wanted a tip for what to look out for for the mechanic that is getting a lot of players, you may have had more people biting and listening to your response.

[Reinha]

Ok people dont seem to understand what I mean.

Why join and ask for the strat written in party chat when you can easily read the strat on google?

Offering guidance is one thing, rewriting the mechanics for you as soon as you join the party makes no sense when you can just go to google to read before that and save everybody some time.

Some mechanics are so lengthy to explain (Thordan?) that more often than not nobody gets to finish and they maybe would if you would have read beforehand. And I can understand you can’t remember everything, but you will remember at least SOMETHING that in the end will make the whole run smoother for everybody.

If you want to do a blind run then join and say that. Don’t join and ask for the full written guide when that is accessible literally everywhere online.

It makes NO difference.

If you learn by doing then congratulations, everyone learns that way, thats not even the point, but don’t join asking people to write down for you something you can find in ten seconds to begin with.

They are lazy. They don't want to learn through practice since that would involve figuring out the mechanic on their own instead of asking you. But of course "anything I need to know?" is how their supposedly blind run begins. They want you to watch/read the guide and tell them what the guide says.

I used to have consolegameswiki text guides open back when I did extremes in Mentor roulette, and I'd copy paste the mechanics after a wipe and a "what happened". Thordan in particular was a fight where the text guide came in handy. No need to waste time typing 9 phases, just copy paste it straight from the website.

Actual blind runs where no one asks to be spoonfed strats are fine, but they aren't for me.

[Packetdancer]

Another thing to note for level 50/60 extremes is the free trial players. They can't form their own party. Duty finder is really their only option for these.

This is true, and something I often forget to mention when pointing that out. So yeah, even if they do know that Duty Finder is not the best option to queue in, for free trial users it's their only option, short of asking on the Novice Network for someone else to make a PF for them.

(I do get why they can't do it; if free trial accounts could make PF listings, the gil seller bots would just immediately clutter party finder with 14 thousand "MOOGLE DOG DASH PVP-BANK DOT COWCOM [REMOVE ANIMALS] CHEAP GIL BEST LOOTS CLEARS DRAGONSONG SAVAGE" advertisements in the form of PF listings. But it's an unfortunate limitation nonetheless.)

[Tiramu]

Uh... You know, you had me at the first half... but no. No, if we're wiping this much in content and people still haven't grasped that they need to be mindful of other peoples' time, then I'm not the one at fault for not asking. Wiping 3 times warrants an explanation, because I'm not sitting around to explain one more thing if you're not going to get it. And guess what: they didn't get it! At that point it's frankly just being disrespectful.

It's not about being kind or following any code of ethics at that point. It's sheer common sense.



This :T

Like, even if you don't want to be a pro, which I don't even expect you to be, if someone's telling you what to do and you're clearly not getting it, take the L and learn. Don't give the person lip, and don't ignore them right after. Because at that point, no, it doesn't matter if you want to go in and learn slowly, you lost all reason and that person doesn't need to deal with your entitled arse any further. They gave you a chance: learn or leave. You don't choose to learn and improve, they don't have to deal with you.

I didn't subscribe to anything past minimal common courtesy.

Maybe you should read this back and think about what you're saying here.

Jumping in with a strategy when people want to figure stuff out for themselves isn't courteous. You could have simply asked whether they wanted help, and let them answer; then if the group isn't compatible with you then accept that you're not suited to that style of play and politely decline. If 3 wipes is just too much for you, then that sounds very impatient.

Going on about being a pro player. I dunno. Like I said before, guides make a big difference to content difficulty, and can take challenging content down to being super easy. So acting like pros read guides and get it right away doesn't sound right to me.

[Tiramu]

That's what I was referring to with the metaphor. Some people do need the crutch of a guide in order for the game to be fun, even if a disability isn't the cause of it.



And your response to it may have killed the fun for those members by telling them the answer. And you don't tend to put forth as much effort into something that you're not having fun with when it comes to entertainment.

If you had asked if someone had wanted a tip for what to look out for for the mechanic that is getting a lot of players, you may have had more people biting and listening to your response.

I get you, and thats fine. I'm just the "at least give it a good shot first" type and dont get it.

[PharisHanasaki]

Because the game doesn't expect you to watch a guide for any of the content. If anything, it makes me sad when people watch guides for normal msq content.

Just play the game

[Midareyukki]

Maybe you should read this back and think about what you're saying here.

Jumping in with a strategy when people want to figure stuff out for themselves isn't courteous. You could have simply asked whether they wanted help, and let them answer; then if the group isn't compatible with you then accept that you're not suited to that style of play and politely decline. If 3 wipes is just too much for you, then that sounds very impatient.

Going on about being a pro player. I dunno. Like I said before, guides make a big difference to content difficulty, and can take challenging content down to being super easy. So acting like pros read guides and get it right away doesn't sound right to me.

On the "pros" thing, I went off of what Deveryn said. To me, being a pro means getting your rotation flawlessly, lining everything up. At no point did I say it's perfection, I just said that I don't expect you to be good, much less excellent, but that there is a baseline to be met. Mechanics have appeared in the game before and you should know them by now. Lapse of judgment and all that I'm perfectly capable of understanding, as even monkeys fall from trees. But when it's clear you don't know the bare minimum mechanic? Then that's a problem.

As for me being impatient, yes well I am a rather impatient person. But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that after four times of wiping, I shouldn't be around. Especially not after the third one where they refused to learn. Or am I?
I think it's a moral high horse that you're on (at least if you're going through such lengths as to call me impatient over this...), since you're really only sticking around and being kind too naïvely rather than seeing the writing on the wall. And before you accuse me of anything else, need I remind you that I stuck around for four tries? And that I actually had the common courtesy of reaching out a hand? If they don't want to learn, they don't want to learn. What more do you want me to do? What else can I do other than offer advice that has already been swatted away? 3 wipes isn't a sign of impatience. Not to mention it was four wipes, not three like you wrote. Perhaps you are the one who needs to go back and read? Four wipes, with my explanation in-between.

There is no strategy anyway. There is only simple "do this mechanic". Strategy is for Extremes. For Normals you resolve clearly defined mechanics, and when you don't understand them, then people will usually tell you. If anyone saw me fail that often and told me, I wouldn't be upset. I'd thank them. Because clearly I wasn't getting it. Not swat me away just because I didn't ask before. Well, I didn't insult either, so why are you biting the hand that feeds you?
I didn't "jump in" with a strategy. I don't know where you got that from. I queued for Duty Finder. And on DF, I really don't care what it is you do, so long as you get results. People might call me too slow or say I move too fast for mechanics, but if they get resolved with no harm done, with me not interfering with anyone's abilities, all gucci. It's when people fail that I believe is a problem. And after failing the same things so many times, I naturally feel compelled to point out. The only thing I failed on was being the nice boy and ask if they wanted to. We tried a fourth time, they didn't get it regardless, what more do you want me to do, stay and bash my head against a wall? That doesn't sound right to me.

You guys treat this game way too politely for its own good. It's nice to be kind to people and that's what we should aspire to, but politness only takes you so far. I'm not lacking in anyone's respect by admitting "this group isn't for me, c'est la vie".

And again I reiterate: YOU read my post. Because this?

then if the group isn't compatible with you then accept that you're not suited to that style of play and politely decline

This is what I did. I offered my advice, it was take it or leave it, I didn't care. They chose not to, they chose to ignore what I said. And I don't know about you, but I have better things to do than to entertain people who won't listen.
You can't win them all the time, might as well accept that and move on. If you're this unfailingly kind, then good for you, but don't project it onto people who have their own limits and didn't disrespect anyone. Because as I said, the only thing I subscribed to was the bare common courtesy. I'm not gonna bend over backwards at every turn. Especially not for those who don't want it.

What to me also doesn't sound right is you saying that over me leaving on the FOURTH try, after actually explaining to them the mechanic they consistently failed on, when there's far worse in the game. People who insult the everliving hell at the 1st run and bail. I'm not one of those, I actually do try to help. I just can't help those who don't want to be helped. And that is not my fault in any way. So stop acting like it is.

[SassyAssassin]

Dont bother, he didn’t read my post either from the beginning or rather read it and decided to get emotional over one situation that happened to him that had nothing to do with what I said.
Nowhere before did I ask or state that I was referring to people doing blind runs. I asked why people don’t read up, and join parties straight up asking “strat?”. What that has to do with running blind I don’t know, unless someone spelling the mechanics for you counts as blind now.

[TaleraRistain]

Because at that point, no, it doesn't matter if you want to go in and learn slowly, you lost all reason and that person doesn't need to deal with your entitled arse any further.

It does matter, because it sounded like in the example you gave that the rest of the group communicated that they wanted to figure it out themselves. You're the entitled one there thinking that only your opinion on the subject mattered.

Nobody faults you for leaving. It's this attitude you have that *they* were the problem because of what they wanted instead of you just not jiving with that group. They might even have kicked you to avoid the penalty if you had asked. I've certainly been happy to do that if someone doesn't want to continue trying.