What Zero Could've Been

[SassyAssassin]

I think there are some pretty common ones like girls with long hair that go through dramatic, compelling emotional journeys/love stories along with sterner guys that carry heavy unseen burdens with facial hair and strong physiques that they could start with.

…….what?…..
This sounds so incredibly boring.
So as a woman my value stands in my long hair and wish for a strong man to love me in the cold nights.
Please stop reading fairytales for little girls.

[Midareyukki]

…….what?…..
This sounds so incredibly boring.
So as a woman my value stands in my long hair and wish for a strong man to love me in the cold nights.
Please stop reading fairytales for little girls.

Okay, this thread's taking a turn and I really just got curious about something, so don't take it personally because it's really just curiosity at play. You're not even the only one saying this. And I KNOW this is gonna be a drama powder keg, so I'll just preface it here by saying this.

Essentially: why be so against that? Some people would actually like to have that, just as much as you'd like to have literally anything else. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with it either. What would be wrong is if Aveyond started saying that every female character and every male character needed to behave like that. Which isn't realistic and is just pushing dumb values everywhere. I'm all for more representation and people of varying outlooks and personal strengths, so I don't see the problem with "strong man protects weak girl" because if I reversed the roles, they'd be in the same dynamic. Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.

But when this idea is so much as even suggested, people go haywire. When there's really not much of a need for that? It's even a fantasy some enjoy, women included. Unless the story portrays their characters exclusively in such a dynamic, it doesn't emasculate the guy or remove agency from the woman by having one be strong and the other dramatic. (Before anyone asks "who's 'some'", I point to the amount of women who adore Cottagecore, which is heavily rooted in old 50's values which did force those standards on women and men)

Your value as a woman does not get boosted nor lowered by having a strong man to embrace you at night, nor would it if you did it to him. It has no bearing on your femininity, nor on his masculinity. As long as you don't make your character only based around that dynamic, it's fine, I think?

[Padudu]

I guess you haven't heard, but there's no accounting for taste. It's innumerable.

Do they? When it comes to a norm for female attractiveness, looked at historically, there isn't much of one.
Generally, it seems to come down to either "look like you're rich," "look built to bear children," or a combination thereof.
And that covers a lot of ground, from beyond Rubenesque to the flappers of the 1920's.*

*Thoroughly Modern Millie contains an amusing bit where Julie Andrew's character Millie is jealous of Mary Tylor Moore's character Dorothy because Dorothy's "beads" -- a long necklace -- "hang straight" on Dorothy's more modest chest.

I mean, yeah they do have incredibly weird views of women. Especially when their other thread about wanting "strong women" in XIV was actually just wanting more attractive, long-haired females like Xenia the Warrior Princess lol. And that too muscled off women (like Roes) would detract from the current male cast.

I just wish the sort of attitude and dynamic she brings could've gone to a male cast member instead. FFXIV women are oftentimes too "strong" without a sufficient arc leading up to that level of empowerment or confidence while the men are either jokes or hung up on a set of emotions like Vrtra is, and it's not doing anyone any favors.

Like, what is that even supposed to mean lmao. Women can't be strong or have dominant qualities unless they pass the aveyond vibe check? We see edgy, strong characters in XIV because they just can be lol - looking at you Zenos and everyone in the DRK quest line.

Like the dude obviously has a type of women he wants to see lmao. Attractiveness is whatever and it's completely subjective to not even have a point really. But saying they ALL need to have compelling backstories as an excuse to having strong/stoic/ect whatever personalities and Y'shtola cannot act snarky towards men because of her lack of a character arc (which honestly, most of the characters don't have much of an arc or even a compelling character arc) is just weird fam. Don't know why you'd defend that unless you vibe with being told you need to act submissive until aveyond tells you, "Oh Silverbane, you've suffered enough in your life so you can now act negatively towards men. Congrats!" lol

[SannaR]

Okay, this thread's taking a turn and I really just got curious about something, so don't take it personally because it's really just curiosity at play. You're not even the only one saying this. And I KNOW this is gonna be a drama powder keg, so I'll just preface it here by saying this.

Essentially: why be so against that? Some people would actually like to have that, just as much as you'd like to have literally anything else. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with it either. What would be wrong is if Aveyond started saying that every female character and every male character needed to behave like that. Which isn't realistic and is just pushing dumb values everywhere. I'm all for more representation and people of varying outlooks and personal strengths, so I don't see the problem with "strong man protects weak girl" because if I reversed the roles, they'd be in the same dynamic. Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.

But when this idea is so much as even suggested, people go haywire. When there's really not much of a need for that? It's even a fantasy some enjoy, women included. Unless the story portrays their characters exclusively in such a dynamic, it doesn't emasculate the guy or remove agency from the woman by having one be strong and the other dramatic. (Before anyone asks "who's 'some'", I point to the amount of women who adore Cottagecore, which is heavily rooted in old 50's values which did force those standards on women and men)

Your value as a woman does not get boosted nor lowered by having a strong man to embrace you at night, nor would it if you did it to him. It has no bearing on your femininity, nor on his masculinity. As long as you don't make your character only based around that dynamic, it's fine, I think?

Aveyond wants that look for most of the characters though. They have repeatedly said that's how they'd like most of the cast to look and behave. Just go take a look at their OP about how'd they change most of the cast. They also tend to disagree with anything that remotely falls short of said look and personality. Course I won't be surprised if they or someone else goes nuh-uh that's not what they mean despite what descriptors they continue to use to paint the type of men and women they want to see. And the kind if behavior they want from them.

[Lunaxia]

I think there are some pretty common ones like girls with long hair that go through dramatic, compelling emotional journeys/love stories along with sterner guys that carry heavy unseen burdens with facial hair and strong physiques that they could start with.

I can't quite believe you're still going on with this.

Here's the honest to gods truth: your takes on this game are absolutely terrible. They're entirely self-centered, archaic, sexist, boring and predictible. They're George R. R. Martin rip-off male power fantasies obsessed with buxom women with flowing locks and five-feet-apart-because-they're-not-gay stoic manly man men with rippling muscles that became a tired trope several decades ago. Times have changed. Media has evolved, people have evolved, society's conceptions of men and women and how they should look and behave evolved, so I suggest either move on with the times, or cling to the plethora of material that already exists that caters to people like you and leave a game actually half-attempting to leave some of the hackneyed, beaten-to-death tropes rampant in JRPGs behind alone if you can't come to terms with it. You're not even offering constructive criticism at this point, you're just trying to justify why misogynistic archetypes and medieval fantasy tropes being stuck into a 2022 game would be good for anyone except you, and poorly at that. If you're so disturbed by women whose sole purpose for existence in a narrative isn't to cater to the male gaze or men who can't grill a steak with the force of their sheer manly ruggedness, FF has many titles that do have those characters, so I recommend starting your search there and allow SE to put a little much-needed progression into one of their games, at least.

[Padudu]

Essentially: why be so against that? Some people would actually like to have that, just as much as you'd like to have literally anything else. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with it either. What would be wrong is if Aveyond started saying that every female character and every male character needed to behave like that. Which isn't realistic and is just pushing dumb values everywhere. I'm all for more representation and people of varying outlooks and personal strengths, so I don't see the problem with "strong man protects weak girl" because if I reversed the roles, they'd be in the same dynamic. Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.

But when this idea is so much as even suggested, people go haywire. When there's really not much of a need for that? It's even a fantasy some enjoy, women included. Unless the story portrays their characters exclusively in such a dynamic, it doesn't emasculate the guy or remove agency from the woman by having one be strong and the other dramatic. (Before anyone asks "who's 'some'", I point to the amount of women who adore Cottagecore, which is heavily rooted in old 50's values which did force those standards on women and men)

I point you to the most obvious dynamic: Thancred & Ryne.

People DO like that dynamic when it's done well. Ryne was - quite literally - a useless reincarnation magical girl who didn't do anything in the beginning but just kind of sit there and watch. Thancred protects her as he did Minfilia, and at the same time, taught her to be her own person. She does eventually become her own person who makes her own choices. That dynamic is completely fine actually and even at the time -- the story makes sense as to why it goes that route. In the end, it doesn't look like she continues fighting or anything like that. She and Gaia help out in the Crystarium and eat some coffee biscuits together. While she fought, she settled down in the end and just does her best to look after her friends. That seems still strong for me - she chose to live that way and she's found some peace.

Same with the RDM quest line. Anya and X'hrun (I'm probably spelling his name wrong, but ya get what I mean lol) also have that dynamic. You and the old cat protect Anya the whole way through until she learns to fend for herself. She gets over her fears and becomes stronk. Things like that.

I think most of the contention here, at least in this thread, is aveyond's tone really, really borderlines incel/niceguy levels lol. There's nothing wrong with requesting more "strong guy/weak girl" dynamics, really. What is wrong is saying that many women in the story except for Yotsuyu apparently is written bad because they act a little mean towards guys. And yeah honestly just take a look at his other threads about this.

[SannaR]

snips

I just wanted to say I love the gif in your signature. Two handsome men. Course they're not Vincent and I can't wait for them to introduce the poor guy in the remake. But you know we can't have them cause they're too pretty and one was fine with dressing drag.

[Ransu]

I think there are some pretty common ones like girls with long hair that go through dramatic, compelling emotional journeys/love stories along with sterner guys that carry heavy unseen burdens with facial hair and strong physiques that they could start with.

So you want unoriginal cliché garbage basically?

[SassyAssassin]

Oka

Ironically my real life style is of the romantic sort, so you aren’t talking to someone that will take your words personally, but here is my opinion since you asked.

There is nothing against that but in case you haven’t noticed he complains about every character ever made, like dude at this point make your own game or shut up.

And my problem with it personally is that I am sick and tired of the little blond girl being saved by the burly man as much as I am tired of the super strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man.
It goes both ways. It’s beyond boring and we have enough of both narratives going around in movies and games.

He is constantly reducing women to having to be nice to male characters, emotional and in love like ok?…..Much personality?

He says Yshtola doesn’t look good enough to have the attitude she has with Magnai like please tell me you are a neckbeard without saying you are a neckbeard.
According to him if a woman doesn’t look like his standards she should shut up, bow down and accept any advances made to her?
Creepy much?

I want characters to feel REAL, Im sick of fairytales, read them enough as a child and Im glad ffxiv doesn’t go that route.

I think they made more than enough variation of soft women, strong women, annoying women, soft men, strong men etc etc. at this point the guy just complains for the sake of complaining.

I really dont think that the way you look at it, is the way he does, seriously give it a few months and you’ll see yet another post of him being salty Yshtola didnt go in the tent with the big aura man.

[SannaR]

So you want unoriginal cliché garbage basically?

He wants that and The Brothers Grimm levels of dark and grittyness.