What Zero Could've Been

[SentioftheHoukai]

I just wanted to say I love the gif in your signature. Two handsome men. Course they're not Vincent and I can't wait for them to introduce the poor guy in the remake. But you know we can't have them cause they're too pretty and one was fine with dressing drag.

Only in the remake, and even then said newly crowned Honeybee Drag Queen ignores the fact that his Drag manager is busy selling soon to be Mafia sex toys to Don Corneo in the shadows. Old Honeybee was narratively sound because it was made to be reviled, this new Honeybee is glorified and people seem all too keen to forget that the establishment is literally selling whores in the shadows. So much for fighting tyrannical sexist men.

[Ransu]

I think there are some pretty common ones like girls with long hair that go through dramatic, compelling emotional journeys/love stories along with sterner guys that carry heavy unseen burdens with facial hair and strong physiques that they could start with.

So you want unoriginal cliché garbage basically?

[SannaR]

So you want unoriginal cliché garbage basically?

He wants that and The Brothers Grimm levels of dark and grittyness.

[SentioftheHoukai]

The world would be a much better place if people were still able to actively identify what actual misogyny and incel/dudebro culture looks like. But it's far too late to save this world, I'd say it went to the dogs nearly fifty years hence but that'd be too big an insult to canis lupus. I'm not a MONSTER.

If misogyny was as everpresent as some seem to see it in every shadowed corner of the globe, then women would have a lot more power and there'd be a hells of a lot less notable men. Decent people fight bigotry, and the effects of such would be clear. The absence of such is tantamount to proof of the contrary viewpoint. It's simple logic, really.

[SassyAssassin]

I think there are some pretty common ones like girls with long hair that go through dramatic, compelling emotional journeys/love stories along with sterner guys that carry heavy unseen burdens with facial hair and strong physiques that they could start with.

…….what?…..
This sounds so incredibly boring.
So as a woman my value stands in my long hair and wish for a strong man to love me in the cold nights.
Please stop reading fairytales for little girls.

[Midareyukki]

…….what?…..
This sounds so incredibly boring.
So as a woman my value stands in my long hair and wish for a strong man to love me in the cold nights.
Please stop reading fairytales for little girls.

Okay, this thread's taking a turn and I really just got curious about something, so don't take it personally because it's really just curiosity at play. You're not even the only one saying this. And I KNOW this is gonna be a drama powder keg, so I'll just preface it here by saying this.

Essentially: why be so against that? Some people would actually like to have that, just as much as you'd like to have literally anything else. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with it either. What would be wrong is if Aveyond started saying that every female character and every male character needed to behave like that. Which isn't realistic and is just pushing dumb values everywhere. I'm all for more representation and people of varying outlooks and personal strengths, so I don't see the problem with "strong man protects weak girl" because if I reversed the roles, they'd be in the same dynamic. Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.

But when this idea is so much as even suggested, people go haywire. When there's really not much of a need for that? It's even a fantasy some enjoy, women included. Unless the story portrays their characters exclusively in such a dynamic, it doesn't emasculate the guy or remove agency from the woman by having one be strong and the other dramatic. (Before anyone asks "who's 'some'", I point to the amount of women who adore Cottagecore, which is heavily rooted in old 50's values which did force those standards on women and men)

Your value as a woman does not get boosted nor lowered by having a strong man to embrace you at night, nor would it if you did it to him. It has no bearing on your femininity, nor on his masculinity. As long as you don't make your character only based around that dynamic, it's fine, I think?

[SannaR]

Okay, this thread's taking a turn and I really just got curious about something, so don't take it personally because it's really just curiosity at play. You're not even the only one saying this. And I KNOW this is gonna be a drama powder keg, so I'll just preface it here by saying this.

Essentially: why be so against that? Some people would actually like to have that, just as much as you'd like to have literally anything else. And there isn't anything inherently wrong with it either. What would be wrong is if Aveyond started saying that every female character and every male character needed to behave like that. Which isn't realistic and is just pushing dumb values everywhere. I'm all for more representation and people of varying outlooks and personal strengths, so I don't see the problem with "strong man protects weak girl" because if I reversed the roles, they'd be in the same dynamic. Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.

But when this idea is so much as even suggested, people go haywire. When there's really not much of a need for that? It's even a fantasy some enjoy, women included. Unless the story portrays their characters exclusively in such a dynamic, it doesn't emasculate the guy or remove agency from the woman by having one be strong and the other dramatic. (Before anyone asks "who's 'some'", I point to the amount of women who adore Cottagecore, which is heavily rooted in old 50's values which did force those standards on women and men)

Your value as a woman does not get boosted nor lowered by having a strong man to embrace you at night, nor would it if you did it to him. It has no bearing on your femininity, nor on his masculinity. As long as you don't make your character only based around that dynamic, it's fine, I think?

Aveyond wants that look for most of the characters though. They have repeatedly said that's how they'd like most of the cast to look and behave. Just go take a look at their OP about how'd they change most of the cast. They also tend to disagree with anything that remotely falls short of said look and personality. Course I won't be surprised if they or someone else goes nuh-uh that's not what they mean despite what descriptors they continue to use to paint the type of men and women they want to see. And the kind if behavior they want from them.

[Midareyukki]

I point you to the most obvious dynamic: Thancred & Ryne.

People DO like that dynamic when it's done well. Ryne was - quite literally - a useless reincarnation magical girl who didn't do anything in the beginning but just kind of sit there and watch. Thancred protects her as he did Minfilia, and at the same time, taught her to be her own person. She does eventually become her own person who makes her own choices. That dynamic is completely fine actually and even at the time -- the story makes sense as to why it goes that route. In the end, it doesn't look like she continues fighting or anything like that. She and Gaia help out in the Crystarium and eat some coffee biscuits together. While she fought, she settled down in the end and just does her best to look after her friends. That seems still strong for me - she chose to live that way and she's found some peace.

Same with the RDM quest line. Anya and X'hrun (I'm probably spelling his name wrong, but ya get what I mean lol) also have that dynamic. You and the old cat protect Anya the whole way through until she learns to fend for herself. She gets over her fears and becomes stronk. Things like that.

I think most of the contention here, at least in this thread, is aveyond's tone really, really borderlines incel/niceguy levels lol. There's nothing wrong with requesting more "strong guy/weak girl" dynamics, really. What is wrong is saying that many women in the story except for Yotsuyu apparently is written bad because they act a little mean towards guys. And yeah honestly just take a look at his other threads about this.

Aveyond wants that look for most of the characters though. They have repeatedly said that's how they'd like most of the cast to look and behave. Just go take a look at their OP about how'd they change most of the cast. They also tend to disagree with anything that remotely falls short of said look and personality. Course I won't be surprised if they or someone else goes nuh-uh that's not what they mean despite what descriptors they continue to use to paint the type of men and women they want to see. And the kind if behavior they want from them.

Alright I understand what's going on better now. Thank you. And yeah, like... trying to be so forceful about this topic and pushing it on every character is daft. When I was asking, I did think of Thancred and Ryne. Shadowbringers was drawing heavily from FF8, and that's written in the same tone as the Medieval Romance literature. Same for Ryne and Gaia; not that they're "in love" with eachother necessarily, but that their dynamic is based heavily on Medieval Romance, where you have a "knight" who wants to protect his "loved one" and would give his life for her, even if it's unattainable and all that jazz (basically, imagine Lancelot, it's literally that). I did not think of RDM's characters, but good shout.

And as problematic as some stories from that genre are, I personally think it's a pretty sweet/cute relationship, it just can't be the only thing you present to people. Not just because it looks like you're pushing an agenda, it also becomes stale wicked fast.

My reaction was really mostly because people brought up how it led to mysoginy, but I see now that the issue isn't the dynamic itself, but rather Aveyond's insistence on it which disregards everything that doesn't fit into that mold.

There is nothing against that but in case you haven’t noticed he complains about every character ever made, like dude at this point make your own game or shut up.

And my problem with it personally is that I am sick and tired of the little blond girl being saved by the burly man as much as I am tired of the super strong independent woman who doesn’t need a man.
It goes both ways. It’s beyond boring and we have enough of both narratives going around in movies and games.

He is constantly reducing women to having to be nice to male characters, emotional and in love like ok?…..Much personality?

I'm really used to people having really extreme opinions on some characters. So I never really thought much about it. I am aware that he does complain a lot about how the game is done, and I don't agree with frankly most of it. There are some stuff that I pick up here and there, but mostly out of discussion, not really because I instantly agree and subscribe to it. For example, I do have issues with, say, G'raha or Y'shtola, but I don't want them gone nor do I want their fundamental character so altered just to fit my own view. If anything, I want to see more of them that isn't the same facet, which Y'shtola has shown really well and G'raha has with his Exarch side.

Same with Zero. I loved how Zero was introduced and I can't wait to see who she is and what she will do. Especially after people pointed out it could lead to "Zero"mus.

And yeah, as I said. It's reducing every dynamic to that sort of thing that's a problem, because it quickly makes people question where it is you stand.

[Lunaxia]

Okay, this thread's taking a turn and I really just got curious about something, so don't take it personally because it's really just curiosity at play. You're not even the only one saying this. And I KNOW this is gonna be a drama powder keg, so I'll just preface it here by saying this.

Essentially: why be so against that?

Yet people react like it's going to undo centuries of women empowerment in society... which, again, it only would promote that sort of thing if that were the only dynamic the story presented.?

You answered your own question.

Women - and some men, to be fair - have fought for many, many years and continue to fight for a diverse representation of men and women that goes beyond defining women by their femininity and their appeal to men, and men by their strength and how they adhere to traditional depictions of masculinity. We've made some progress, but look at Western media in general and you can see it's still fairly rampant, the messages are merely more subtle these days. Gaming in particular has often been a hotbed of misogynistic viewpoints and male gaze parades, and it's taken a long time just to get to where we are now, which isn't terribly far. Doubling back on that to return to haggard tropes that undermine quite literally all of that under the pretext of "variety" is pointless, unnecessary and self-defeating.

As for your point on Cottagecore, women enjoy it because they feel they can now freely enjoy the idea of a rural, country life on their terms, without all of the stereotyping and sexist misery that used to go along with it. Most fantasies and aesthetics revolving around it actually exclude men entirely.

[Midareyukki]

You answered your own question.

Women - and some men, to be fair - have fought for many, many years and continue to fight for a diverse representation of men and women that goes beyond defining women by their femininity and their appeal to men, and men by their strength and how they adhere to traditional depictions of masculinity. We've made some progress, but look at Western media in general and you can see it's still fairly rampant, the messages are merely more subtle these days. Gaming in particular has often been a hotbed of misogynistic viewpoints and male gaze parades, and it's taken a long time just to get to where we are now, which isn't terribly far. Doubling back on that to return to haggard tropes that undermine quite literally all of that under the pretext of "variety" is pointless, unnecessary and self-defeating.

As for your point on Cottagecore, women enjoy it because they feel they can now freely enjoy the idea of a rural, country life on their terms, without all of the stereotyping and sexist misery that used to go along with it. Most fantasies and aesthetics revolving around it actually exclude men entirely.

Well, it wasn't really an answer to my question, because what I was asking was "it doesn't do this, so why are people getting so upset about it?"
And that's true for Cottagecore, it's even probably why it's popular in sapphic circles.