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  1. #1
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    3,672
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiramu View Post
    Not to say there isnt room for improvement, but name an MMO where people at endgame are happy with job performance?

    You basically end up with a few groups of people who become very negative either because their jobs arent powerful enough despite all being able to clear the content, and expert players who want more complexity without considering that jobs also need to be accessible to first timers. Its just the nature of the beast.
    You can have accessibility without making jobs incredibly basic. You accomplish this by giving them a proper ceiling, thus allowing players to improve based on the content they enjoy partaking in. Black Mage is among the very few jobs that does precisely that: relatively easy to pick up and play but requires a lot of fight knowledge and skill to play at an optimal level.

    Perhaps the best example of a job having the rugged played out beneath its feet is Bard. Back in Stormblood, it was pretty simple to manage at a casual level. Keep your DoTs up and always reapply Straight Shot. Nothing too extraneous. At the higher end, you had Iron Jaws snapshotting, Foe's optimization and occasional Song manipulation all of which weren't technically required even at an Ultimate level despite it being expected from players tackling that degree of a challenge. Fast forward to day and Bard saw all of that stripped away: Straight Shot and Foe's were both axed while DoTs were bumped up to 45 seconds and were given a flat proc rate, thereby completely nullifying Iron Jaws snapshotting. Iron Jaws itself hasn't seen any potency increases, further weakening its impact. DoTs on the whole virtually no interaction with the job now and seem poised to die in 7.0

    In other words, all of Bard's nuance was gutted because some players whined and the devs disliked they couldn't be bothered to keep up Straight Shot in content where it didn't even matter to begin with.

    These changes weren't for accessibility. They were to coddle bad players. Not even necessarily casual players. Just bad ones who can't be bothered to learn yet don't want to feel inferior despite that ruining everyone else's gameplay. The irony is Bard was the most popular DPS in Stormblood. It catered to being the least played Prange throughout all of Shadowbringers and only made a brief recovery in Endwalker because Dancer sucked. Now Bard is still among the most punishing jobs to play but without any reward. You spam Burst Shot incessantly, do paltry damage and god help you if the boss decides to jump because manipulating your songs now at 45 seconds absolutely sucks.
    (8)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  2. #2
    Player
    marelooke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    69
    Character
    Lomea I'ramaloce
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    Absolutely loathe most of the WAR changes, the job basically plays itself now, the Overpower nerf just nuked the last bit of soul the job had.
    Enjoyed GNB though it isn't for me (to take into Savage)
    DRK feels too similar to WAR, and I've never particularly liked PLD (which is fine, not everyone should enjoy playing every job. SE might wanna take a note on that)

    DRG still feels fine. I do miss the tether and don't really know if removing the upkeep of the buff (and it's effect) was really a necessary thing (same deal with BLM).
    MNK feels worse to me than before the rework, but that was technically still in ShB. Easier to play at a basic competency, I guess.
    RPR feels kinda simplistic compared to other jobs.
    No real opinion on the rest of the melee jobs.

    Healer wise. Increasing the range on most every ground target skill seems a tad dubious.
    AST identity got gutted for no real reason with removal of the Sects. Cards seem even more "meh" of a mechanic than before.
    SCH still seems fine, wish the Faeries got some of their uniqueness back though.
    SGE, still not sure how I feel about Sage. Enjoy playing it, but it does feel like just a variation on the SCH theme. Good thing I enjoy SCH, I suppose.

    RDM feels worse than in ShB. DPS just isn't there, and not sure why the new AoE had to be a line (guess everyone gets to have directional AoEs, except for Warrior. Grmbl.)
    BLM feels similar to before, though they got a boatload more mobility. Probably the only job whose identity is safe as long as Yoshi-P is around.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    A lack of player honesty in providing feedback is a recurrent problem in all this.

    Everyone wants to wrangle out the biggest advantages for their jobs, and nobody seems to want an level playing field in which they can compete in on equal terms. But everyone knows that they can't simply demand an obviously unfair advantage upfront. So this manifests as 'my job should do damage because it's harder to play than the others' and 'my job should do more damage because it has less utility than the other jobs'. And then players are surprised when their jobs are reworked to make them 'more accessible'. Who asked for all these simplifications? You all did. Here, on the forums. You all thought that the dev team would be impressed at your superior skill to everyone else when you went on and on for months about job difficulty and thought they would bestow you with a dps advantage to give you a free ticket into PF groups. They interpreted it as a complaint that the job was too hard to play.

    Monkey's paw, friends. If people could simply keep their silence when their job is in a relatively good place (no, a hundred dps is absolutely not worth fighting tooth and claw over, you can easily overcome that just by being a higher percentile player), or focus on cool ideas to expand on the job in the next expansion, then we'd see a lot less of this nonsense. Has BLM ever been reworked? I think there's less threads about them than anyone else. The job slowly expands on its rotation each expansion, rather than smashing everything to bits every few patches. That's what we all should be aiming for.
    (6)

  4. #4
    Player Mithron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    699
    Character
    Mithron Scarlet
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
    So this manifests as 'my job should do damage because it's harder to play than the others' and 'my job should do more damage because it has less utility than the other jobs'.
    I think most people want PLD to have the most utility and mitigation thus lowest damage because of it, my self included.
    (1)

  5. #5
    Player
    Absurdity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    3,100
    Character
    Tiana Vestoria
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithron View Post
    I think most people want PLD to have the most utility and mitigation thus lowest damage because of it, my self included.
    I also have no issue with warrior doing lower dps, even if I think the selfheal is severely overrated in a raid setting. My main complaints about the job are that it is absolutely idiot proof and therefore incredibly boring.
    ...I say it's idiot proof but despite SE's best attempts you still have people completely mess it up because no amount of simplification can fix players who aren't even trying.
    (1)
    Last edited by Absurdity; 11-13-2022 at 08:32 PM.

  6. #6
    Player Mithron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    699
    Character
    Mithron Scarlet
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Absurdity View Post
    I also have no issue with warrior doing lower dps, even if I think the selfheal is severely overrated in a raid setting.
    I do. I believe WAR is thematically at its core identity meant to be the high DPS low utility/healing tank. PLD is meant to be the exact opposite.
    (4)

  7. #7
    Player
    SargeTheSeagull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    421
    Character
    Rad Calidum
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Design wise? Red mage, dancer, and paladin. I pretty much can't stand any other job anymore. And i suspect the paladin rework in 6.3 will leave me with only two jobs I like.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Lyth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Meracydia
    Posts
    3,883
    Character
    Lythia Norvaine
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Viper Lv 100
    I think a lot of players are happy with RPR this expansion. The setup for burst feels like it was refined off of HW/pre-4.2 WAR, while the actual execution feels like it was refined off of GNB. And the actual rate of resource generation is tuned in a fairly clever way, so long as you're able to maintain uptime. I hope

    My own dissatisfaction with tanks this expansion has less to do with the rotations themselves and more to do with the fight design. It seems like the dev team haven't really trusted tanks to manage positioning since the final tier of Omega. This tier was particularly bad. Largely self-positioning bosses and two wall bosses, all of whom have giant hitboxes? You might as well play melee and actually get to have some impact outside of the occasional threat of accidentally cleaving your group. As long as positioning and tank movement is a non-issue on most fights, I don't think any tank is going to feel engaging or meaningful to play.
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player
    Regentwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Ember Starfury
    World
    Marilith
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    I really like RDM. I mean it has kind of always been in the same situations, but there were a few small but subtle changes that really improved the flow. There were some exceptional changes, especially in the AoE category, it flows so much more naturally and does not feel like you just play a completely different class. You still build up WM/BM and use your cooldowns / rotation like you do single target, so it just feels a lot more smooth to me.

    Alternatively, BLM also feels very nice. It's still a difficult rotation to be sure, but it is significantly easier than it used to be. They really didn't change the playstyle at all. All the changes (including paradox) for black mages always seem to be a change that makes one aspect of the class that people see as difficult a little bit easier.

    Though there was this whole paradox only BLM that I never tried and I don't know if that's still valid, so I can't speak on that.
    (0)

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