"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[Atelier-Bagur]

Performance includes more than just learning the dance as I said. That is the minimum required to clear because if these 8 people don't learn the mechanics, they'll constantly nuke each other and won't come even near a clear.

And knowing you'll wipe to enrage still doesn't give you information about why you will wipe to it - and that was the question. If you have 20 deaths, it's easy. Just die less.
But what if you just had one death and 2 damage downs but are 10% off?
There's obviously more issues than a single death and 2 damage downs as avoiding them doesn't suddenly delete 10% boss HP. What then? Are you going to ask everyone if they did their rotation correctly, if they used their cooldowns on cooldown, if they kept uptime etc? How informative is a "Yes" or a "I think I did" or a "Could probably do better"? How do you know it's honest or comes from the right people? How do you know the player saying they could probably do better and have messed up a few things is really the problem? How do you know it's not the person that said "Yup, I kept everything on cooldown and kept uptime, I followed the balance rotation"?
It could very well be that one player simply has a different standard for "messing up" than someone else because in a group of 8 people, you will most likely have 8 different standards for "doing well" and "messed it up".
You have no data to check the validity of any of their claims.

Don't try to spin this into a "obessing over 1%" thing when that's not the case. This isn't about "But you're supposed to trust the people in your static, if not can't trust them you gotta find a new one", trust issues either, it's simply about facts vs feelycraft.
The question was how you are going to accurately determine where issues are without any data whatsoever except feelycraft and boss HP at certain mechanics. This isn't about p8s specifically but this claim that you don't need a 3rd party tool to accurately identify issues when wiping to enrage or knowing you're doing well.
The game doesn't give you any valid feedback about your performance; it's that simple.
No, hitting a dummy for 3min and getting a pat on the back for killing it isn't valid feedback either. It's the bare minimum and tells you nothing about how someone performs in the fight while doing mechanics.

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

[Oizen]

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

I view it more of this game wants to have its cake and eat it too.

Hardcore Raiding? Cool thats neat.
Not giving the players anyway to evaluate their OWN damage, let alone the performance of others? Not so great
Not even given the faintest hint of feedback on ANY KIND OF PERFORMANCE at all? Now its just getting mediocre.

The toxicity is already there, people will just scream and frustration when things dont work out and lash out at anything, rather than giving people a means of identifying issues with the party and adjust accordingly you'd rather have a system that keeps everyone in the dark for the sake of protecting some players feelings? This is somehow preferable to an entire party disbanding and they all get frustrated and upset over it rather than being able to identify the weak link,
who may very well be someone who doesnt even KNOW they're the weak link and has no means in the game for self improvement?

Then honestly maybe they shouldn't put such high gear/dps/heal checks in this game. Just let all the content be easy baby mode and put the PVP chat filters on all content.
Or are people really supposed to just run the same content 100 times and pray that one time the planets align and they get the clear?

Its honestly kinda pathetic that so many groups just rely on these plethora of 3rd party tools just to accomplish what other games have as basic features, all in the false pretense that it makes the game less toxic.

[Saraide]

Its honestly kinda pathetic that so many groups just rely on these plethora of 3rd party tools just to accomplish what other games have as basic features, all in the false pretense that it makes the game less toxic.

I want to add to that, the only thing that can make the game less toxic is active moderation. You can not eliminate toxicity through taking away tools. Crystal Conflict's chat system proves that. Sure you only have predetermined messages but when a teamfight goes south and one person is spamming good match 15 times in a row, we can all guess what they actually mean to say.

[Yeastyloins]

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

I mean you can surprisingly look over log data, identify a problem with regards to another players performance, bring up said thing you identified in a polite and supportive manner in order for said person to try adjust things to improve. You can even do all of this in private.

[Packetdancer]

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

I think the sample data here is skewed; people are more likely to come post on the forums when annoyed or upset about a thing. Folks who have just used logs to improve their own performance or clean up a static's mitigation strategy for a fight are not likely to come post on the forums about it.

Therefore, you're more likely to see people who have just had a negative experience with parsing come and post here... and more likely to see people who engage in that conversation on the opposing side taking a defensive tone.

This isn't to say that parsing may not cause more negativity than positivity; I don't know. But I do think that forum posts are a terrible—and inherently inaccurate—way to judge that.

[SaberMaxwell]

The fact that I'm seeing people getting this upset and salty is kinda giving reason why parsing brings more negativity that positivity.

Sounds like confirmation bias to me to be honest.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Thing is I get it, class balance needs to better, but people need to learn to properly chill and get some needed perspective sometimes rather than stewing in their own mindset about how the balance should be for them.

[DeNada]

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

[LittleImp]

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

Combination of factors.

Fight was overtuned and required higher degrees of perfection than any savage fight since HW. It doesn't really make sense for a Savage DPS check to be more difficult to meet than an on-content ultimate.

Job balance is extremely bad right now, which combined with the above lead playing certain jobs to be akin to actively sabotaging your group. These jobs were getting mass kicked or locked out of party finder.

P8S doorboss is fun, but badly designed. It has two timeline permutations, and one of the permutations is inherently worse for buff alignment / pot windows. Because the check was so tight, this lead to groups immediately walling if the pattern was unfavorable.

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

Being forced to switch jobs, pray for crit RNG or abort runs because of bad timeline RNG isn't 'challenging'. It's just unfun.

[Saraide]

What's the issue exactly with the tuning of the latest savage anyway?

It was cleared in about a day which is the same time it took for other raid tiers previously. It's not like it is impossible to clear during the 1st week with existing gear so why are people complaining so much about the tuning that it has to be nerfed, which is kinda disappointing.

God forbids that players are given a challenge for hardcore content which savage raids are supposed to be. No, everything has to be nerfed so as to appease the casual masses which is urgh.

The key was job balance. Several groups that had a paladin or a warrior were hardstuck on the phase 1 enrage on p8s despite getting through the fight cleanly but managed to clear within a couple of pulls (or even the next pull) when they swapped to drk/gnb, despite those jobs not being the comfort job of these tanks. That's what made it so disheartening. The DPS check being this tight is a bit of an outlier but it didnt break the fight. As you say, world first was achieved in a reasonable amount of time, but the job composition played a role in it and that goes against the intended design of 'play whichever job you like'.