"Balance team tests the fights themseslves"

[IkaraGreydancer]

Logs are only used for Savage level content because, as this most recent tier has shown, you kind of need to know how your party is overall matching up to the content for early clears. Sure I guess Extremes too to an extent, but the DPS checks in Extreme are very lax. It's not like people are tracking logs on your 12th run of the fell court of Troia.

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. That doesn't really change what I'm saying tbf

[IkaraGreydancer]

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

[Midareyukki]

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs have done more harm than good. XIV is a blast when you aren't fixated on numbers

I'll stand by my notion that fflogs has done more good than harm. XIV is a blast when you can know your performance and help elevate your friends performance instead of being complacency ignorant. When people come together with like minded beliefs and performance the game is so much more fun

I stand by my notion that fflogs, just like anything else, has harmless properties when applied right, but disastrous properties when applied poorly. XIV is a blast when you get to have fun, and for a lot of people, being able to improve, minmax, optimize and formulate strategies to clear content faster and in effective ways to minimize issues is fun. XIV is an uncomfortable mess if people harass others over damage and actively seek to ruin peoples' experiences based on them alone.

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

And this is where you lost me. I think you conflate "clearing" with "optimizing", which isn't the same. You can clear content but have had a horrid experience because no one around you knew what they were doing and had awful reactions and made poor decisions. I too run casual content for the hell of it. I was one of the weirdoes who spammed Return to Ivalice and enjoyed it. I still do it! I love getting Orbonne and I find it funny when people sigh that it's hard. I went on PF for Extremes before because they were fun and I just wanted a clear. But throughout it all, I kept in mind that there was a minimum amount of effort required from me on a group, and a little bit of optimization didn't hurt anyone. Having people keeping logs around and telling me if what I did succeeded or not really helped.

Logs aren't invalidated because you think you're doing fine and can clear stuff. Not everyone has that outlook. You shouldn't get in their way as much as you have the right of not being bothered by them. Logs are validated when they can help people understand how their job works, if there's anything they need to tweak, and where it's best to optimize vs where it's not. Balance is never done "on a gut feeling". No matter how much logs "don't matter".

[Dzonathan]

I know I'm doing fine and don't need a number chart to tell me that. Running raids (normals) for pieces is always a blast and most groups have a great time clearing, with minimal mess ups to boot. Again, no log needed.

Logs is a big part of why we have these types of threads. And they breed nothing but ire tbh

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Tell me how you would solve the issue where your group wipes due to enrage timer?
How would you know someone is under performing without resorting to 3rd party tools?
Before you hit that reply button, NO, I don't care if it happens or not, I ask you HOW you would handle it if it kept happening and held your group back.

I would watch what others are doing and bring that up to em if excessive wipes are happening. It's not hard to tell who is and isn't doing what needed. But again I've never needed to do this tbf.

[SaberMaxwell]

Savage tiers would die so much faster and subs dropped so much quicker without fflogs there to provide metacontent after the fact. If we, of course, assume that in lieu of FFLogs there'd be nothing, speedkilling and parse running communities wouldn't exist; people would have little reason to pug with strangers outside of their inner circle to improve their personal performance in their off time.

Midare has the right of it imo. There's nuance. No tool brings strictly good things as tools are what the community does with them.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Savage tiers would die so much faster and subs dropped so much quicker without fflogs there to provide metacontent after the fact. If we, of course, assume that in lieu of FFLogs there'd be nothing, speedkilling and parse running communities wouldn't exist; people would have little reason to pug with strangers outside of their inner circle to improve their personal performance in their off time.

Midare has the right of it imo. There's nuance. No tool brings strictly good things as tools are what the community does with them.

Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

[Pyro2hell3]

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

I'm not even going to touch the hellish can of worms that comes from a voluntary sample method because that would take forever or more likely just kill everybody here

[Liam_Harper]

fflogs has the same problem any tool like it tends to have tons of people not using it right or actually understanding it. it also has some major flaws. for example a week one orange parse which is basically the best a person who just hit 90 and started raiding this week could ever do will at some point become a grey parse and said player doing the best they possibly could and would most likely be a boon for any raid group will be treated like one of those idiots I could out dps by sitting on my key board.

Logs don't work that way. You get your orange, it gets locked on your profile as a historical percentile.

Besides, no static with a shred of common sense cares if you have greys on your profile. The obsession over percentile number and fear that you'll be seen as "bad" (or judging others over it) if it isn't orange is mostly a casual player thing. Good players just use it to set personal goals and keep raids interesting on reclears. Decent statics are looking for your potential, your uptime and if you're playing your job correctly.

[SaberMaxwell]

Those communities are a fraction of the savage community which is already a fraction of the playerbase.

That community generally isn't part of the PF or casual statics actually keeping savage going long after hardcore groups have gotten their 8 clears and unsubbed until ultimate/next tier.

The metacontent that I specified is why hardcore groups do more than the 8 kills and unsub. Its why some go for multiple statics, split farms, etc to fulfill goals on FFlogs. To get 100 on parse, rank 1 on speed, rank last on performance, pantsless runs, meet FFLogs challenges which impose rules on how yo clear a fight for special rankings.

None of that would be a thing and nobody would have a reason to clear savage past kill 8, even the casual raiders.

I don't have numbers to back any claims that it isn't a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, hyperbole on your statement of course mine. So sure, we can pretend for the sake of argument that maybe 100 players would leave without fflogs completely. Maybe savage wouldn't be dying content because most people interested are at least geared out fully by week 12, leaving...12-16 more weeks of the tier left that people have no reason to run it.

FFlogs is still, imo, a net boon for providing strong analysis tools for everyone of every level.