[Machinist] What is going on?

[CKNovel]

Are you actually being serious?

Yes I am. I understand this is a very hot take but I consider it an interesting point of view.
A reward means there is a series of action that leads to said reward. Raidbuff are just that, granting a raidbuff.
The DNC or any rDPS job, is unimpacted if the group is taking advantage of the party buff or not.
If they don't, FFLogs punishes you by giving lower numbers and the game punishes the whole group if they don't meet the requirement for the DPS check.

Ask yourself the opposite question:
Are you rewarded if your teammates makes 100% use of your raidbuff?
No, your gameplay remain the same, your DPS remains the same.
FFLogs will show you bigger numbers, because they reattribute what the others gained from your buff to you and your group will have a higher DPS.

It's important to make the cut between the player and the group as a whole. Which entity gets the reward?
The DNC isn't "rewarded", it's the group as a whole that gets rewarded for making use of the buff, resulting in bigger aDPS.

You do realize, this goes directly against the 1st statement?
Also its the unique feature that can make DNC either superior OR INFERIOR, depending also on that partner.

It doesn't, you're still thinking of it as a "reward for the DNC". rDPS is a team effort, it shows your contribution to the group, not your skill level.
It's not meant to show that you are better because you have a bigger rDPS, but that your group has a better teamwork.

It doesn't matter that the DNC can be superior or inferior, the point is to show that the Dancer partner mechanic can be exploited in such way. The topic isn't that there is a ceiling and a floor, but that the ceiling can be pushed to ridiculous heights.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Snip

Ok let me ask you this :

If the dancer buff with 100% uptime a DPS who initially do 10.000 DPS exactly by 5%. How much rDPS will the dancer get ?

After you get this answer, you just adapt the "Initial DPS" by whatever number you wish, and you'll see that the rDPS is affected.

So, BRD is exactly in the same position, because he buff 100% of the time (including that he switch between 3 buff of course) but for the whole team. DNC can also buff the whole team (For a short period of time, just like DRG, RPR, SMN, RDM and even NIN, but that one is a debuff but works the sameway)

When you give something to up the DPS of your team, you are impacting your rDPS. If your team is bad, you won't get the same value against a team that is good. It's math, plain and simple.

BRD and DNC don't depends on their team, you're getting the whole thing backward.
BRD and DNC provides buffs, they did their job. How the team makes uses of these buffs doesn't impact BRD&DNC performances.

If you provide buff, you depend on your team up to a certain point to get rDPS. I, as a Reaper, depend on my team into the 2 minute burst. But the Bard, depends on the whole team for 100% of the time.

Like I said, If you don't buff people as a BRD or DNC you lose something like 1300 DPS (And that's for 95% percentile, so Assuming that your team know their stuff).

And about the comparison with stuff included. I'm still on my position : YOU CAN'T COMPARE.

If a 610 iLvL samourai do 10.000 DPS, then how many will do a 630 iLVL (with 635 weapon) ? This will impact rDPS and biase comparison with the MCH if he don't keep up in stuff. It's just like you ask to compare 2 Cars that looks the same but that don't even have the same motor's capacity inside. That would make no sense

Prove me by numbers that you HAVE to compare a MCH iLVL 610 with a DNC of the same ilvl but linked to a Overstuffed Samourai ? Just try, everything will be biased because it's not viable in any calculation. You need to compare thing on equal, if one number is off, your whole calculation is false.

EDIT : Before you say anything, when you make calculation, Skill doesn't count. This is all done by theorising the fact that the MCH and the DNC+Partner have equal Skills.

[CKNovel]

If you provide buff, you depend on your team up to a certain point to get rDPS. I, as a Reaper, depend on my team into the 2 minute burst. But the Bard, depends on the whole team for 100% of the time.

Like I said, If you don't buff people as a BRD or DNC you lose something like 1300 DPS (And that's for 95% percentile, so Assuming that your team know their stuff).

And about the comparison with stuff included. I'm still on my position : YOU CAN'T COMPARE.

rDPS only exists in FFLogs.
In game, it has no impact on your personal performance. I understand if you allies don't take advantage of the buff, it lowers the value of a DNC.
Outside of it, you just provide a buff and you wouldn't know how much it would contribute, simply that stacking them is good.
That's your job, you deliver the buff at the given time. What happens next is not your control, not impacted by your skill level.

rDPS is a metric used to measure your contribution to the group, not your worth.
What if you get the jobs on the lower end in your team, what if you get WAR, MCH, RDM, RPR? The rDPS will be lower, can you still say you're "punished" for it?
But when the comp includes GNB, DRK, SAM, MNK, BLM, you're "rewarded" for this choice?

rDPS isn't a good metric to evaluate a player skill.

I'm also still standing on my point, you can and must compare them.
Gear distribution is a player choice, feeding melee is a strategy, feeding a melee and buff it with dancer is a strategy one step further.
Feeding a MCH isn't a viable strategy. I don't need numbers to explain this point as we know aDPS and rDPS.
Ask yourself "why are the melee fed in the first place? Why is the dancer partner on the fed melee?"

You get the answer: because Melee gets better value out of gear and Dance partner gets additional value out of someone's else gear.

[MichiKyou]

rDPS only exists in FFLogs.
You get the answer: because Melee gets better value out of gear and Dance partner gets additional value out of someone's else gear.

Which is exactly what we are trying to address.
If the DPS disparity between SAM/BLM/MCH was more equal, it would make sense to feed the machinist.

Alternatively, adjust how dance partner works - so it can be readily applied to Ranged or Caster DPS without consequence. As it stance, dancer is a job only built around melee dps which is imbalanced.

[MichiKyou]

I'm hoping we get some stuff addressed in the liveletter.

[Renathras]

It does if you look at adps. The only jobs that out-DPS machinists on personal damage are the melees and black mage.

It's buffs where it falls behind.

I genuinely don't understand why people keep bringing this up in all these discussions. Do people not read the definition of aDPS vs rDPS?

No one is choosing Jobs based on aDPS for raid slots. "Well, you bring a total of 8,000 aDPS but 0 buffs so only 8,000 rDPS while your competitor brings 6,000 aDPS but their buffs add up to another 4,000 so they're bringing 10,000 total DPS to the party to take the boss down and beat enrage..."

What matters is total DPS. If that didn't matter and aDPS is what mattered, no one would bring BRD and DNC.

.

MCH needs...something.

It's in a role with a "tax". So either the tax needs to go away (entirely or at least be waived for MCH) or it has to have a different identity. RDM could do so much less damage than BLM and SMN in ShB and BLM in EW because Verraise. DNC's personal damage can be low because its buff damage is high.

Either MCH needs to be a selfish DPS that actually BRINGS THE DPS and is in the top 5 if not top 3 Jobs for DPS, or it needs to be given SOME kind of serious utility. Whether this is competing directly with BRD and DNC in damage buffs, is given defensive buffs (though those age poorly as a tier goes on) or a combat raise (Defibrilate comes to mind), it either needs one of those or it needs to seriously be top damage. Not that everyone knows the only Jobs that don't have 100% uptime are BLM and RDM, there's zero reason for that tax to continue to exist, and certainly to apply to MCH.

[Dyvid]

The first fix that has to happen is DPS Job Roles. You can't have a "Caster" that has 80% of its spells free moving insta-cast along with 3% Raid DPS buff and doing more DPS than the "Support" that has zero Raid DPS buffs.

In the short term, MCH abilities need a buff to bring it up to a rewarding level. In the long term they need to sit down and rethink the battle system because its current design isn't working anymore.

[CKNovel]

The first fix that has to happen is DPS Job Roles. You can't have a "Caster" that has 80% of its spells free moving insta-cast along with 3% Raid DPS buff and doing more DPS than the "Support" that has zero Raid DPS buffs.

In the short term, MCH abilities need a buff to bring it up to a rewarding level. In the long term they need to sit down and rethink the battle system because its current design isn't working anymore.

I agree, MCH as a pure DPS cannot work as long as SQEX remains this stubborn on the melee/ranged gap.

The only way for current MCH to be viable is for the job rDPS to be above Dancer and behind blackmage.
This is the minimum to make pure DPS MCH a viable pick but also cross the limits that will make MCH broken during the process.

In short, there's no in between for MCH. It will be either worthless or overpowered.

MCH also need a lot more:
-I'll never be tired of mentionning Flamethrower
being an emote better than Scattergun in some cases.
-Lack of support
I kinda wish BRD and DNC would be "regen ranged" and MCH + a futur job would be "barrier ranged".
I would be satisfied with almost anything, Dismantle and Palisade being back, rook and bishop back to respectively heal and shield the party...
-Ridiculously rigid due to heat.
-Automaton Queen and Wildfire being way too automated and therefore unfun after summoning it for the 100th time.

[RyuDragnier]

I feel like Queen should be MCH's support, in a fashion. Buffs everybody else's damage by a small amount (like 2%) while out, and Queen itself does guaranteed DH Crits (boosting MCH's damage). Make it so Queen's damage is also calculated into Wildfire's damage. Boom, would likely fix MCH overall...at first glance anyway, I'm not a number cruncher.

[CKNovel]

I feel like Queen should be MCH's support, in a fashion. Buffs everybody else's damage by a small amount (like 2%) while out, and Queen itself does guaranteed DH Crits (boosting MCH's damage). Make it so Queen's damage is also calculated into Wildfire's damage. Boom, would likely fix MCH overall...at first glance anyway, I'm not a number cruncher.

Making its punch accounted in Wildfire damage is terrible as you would need very good timing to sync the Queen, your Hypercharge and the Wildfire.
You wouldn't fix MCH but make it ridiculously difficult to optimize.

There's another problem with the buff idea:
Since AQ is set to 15 seconds, you would just summon it at soon as you reach 50 battery just to have 2% damage buff every 30 seconds for 15 seconds.
A party buff would be much more valuable than AQ own damage.

In short, both changes are incompatible.