[Machinist] What is going on?

[Seraphor]

It does if you look at adps. The only jobs that out-DPS machinists on personal damage are the melees and black mage.

It's buffs where it falls behind.

Adps is a pointless metric, a jobs dps buffs are a part of their damage contribution. Raid buffs might be skewed depending on the number of players in the partyn but there are always at least three other party members in any valid content, and frankly all significant content (even if it's not savage) is still 8 man content.

It would be one thing if a 'selfish' dps job could compete with the rdps of others in a 4 man but not an 8 man, but even that's not the case for MCH.

[Risvertasashi]

Adps is a pointless metric, a jobs dps buffs are a part of their damage contribution. Raid buffs might be skewed depending on the number of players in the partyn but there are always at least three other party members in any valid content, and frankly all significant content (even if it's not savage) is still 8 man content.

It would be one thing if a 'selfish' dps job could compete with the rdps of others in a 4 man but not an 8 man, but even that's not the case for MCH.

Hard disagree. rdps is important, but so is adps - especially when making the argument for "selfish" DPS types. rdps is exactly where selfish DPS should fall behind - if selfish DPS have the best adps and rdps, what's even the point of raid buffs? (And, yes, I do think melee that fall into the category of "best of both" are overtuned).

[TheDustyOne]

Isn't the point of rdps to account for the discrepancy between jobs with different adps? It doesn't matter if a job is selfish or not, if it has less rdps than another, then it's bringing less dps overall regardless of its adps.

[Seraphor]

Hard disagree. rdps is important, but so is adps - especially when making the argument for "selfish" DPS types. rdps is exactly where selfish DPS should fall behind - if selfish DPS have the best adps and rdps, what's even the point of raid buffs? (And, yes, I do think melee that fall into the category of "best of both" are overtuned).

Adps is pointless because of rdps.
If you're balancing jobs, then you need them to be on roughly the same level in terms of the damage they contribute. Rdps is the total contribution a job can provide, therefore rdps should be more or less equal, regardless of how much of that rdps us made up via adps or buffs.

The problem is how much rdps varies depending on team composition, but mainly the sheer number of players in a party.
A +1% buff on a light party equals +3% rdps, on a full party its +7% rdps.
You either choose a composition to balance around, or you scale party buffs according to the number of players.
If you're going with the first option as is the case in this game, then you should be balancing around an 8-man party composition.

Any selfish dps should therefore deal equivalent damage to the rdps of 'utility' dps within their role, so that they can be interchangeable.

You can argue that relative skill level skews it even more, but then you just need to balance around the median skill level. This will still result in the utility jobs outclassing the selfish dps at the highest level, but gor the majority of players there will be no excluding of jobs due to a lack of raid buffs.

[CKNovel]

aDPS is an important metric to look at.

If we only had rDPS we wouldn't understand how jobs like SAM or BLM truly benefits from raidbuff.
rDPS is a much better metric to understand what a job provides to the group.
It's important to not only focus on one but to understand both.

As for "MCH outperforms BRD/DNC in other content" that's not true either, but more importantly that's not relevant.
BRD is a big winner in AoE games. It makes sense that DNC falls off when a lot of players simply don't care about doing good DPS in content other than savage.
In dungeons, 24 mans raid and other, you could have massive discrepancy it wouldn't matter.

Savage and Ultimate are the only places were DPS matters, therefore the basis for DPS balance.

[MichiKyou]

I dont want Machinist to be shouldered wth another buff if its just going to be used to justify the fact it has lower DPS.
I want either:

Every class to be rebalanced based on the new fight design philosophy because Melee are really over performing.
or
Machinist to recieve some work to make it keep up with the other pure DPS jobs. SAM/BLM/MCH should only ever be a 1-3% difference in damage. They're all pure DPS.
or
Adjust how party bonuses work so it is viable to take 2 RDPS or 2 MDps or 2Melee + 1 of each of the other, for more dynamic groups.

Personally i'd love to see the Heat combo be adjusted potency wise and to increase its heat generation - even if its rng based like 30%chance hit 1, 60% chance hit 2, 100% chance hit 3. I'd also love wildfire to be adjusted to damage based not GCD based, and one of the tools to be an OGCD.

[AmiBeau]

Currently MCH is my main this tier; I don't think it's NEARLY as bad as people are making it out to be TBH. While at the end of the fight I might find myself in 3rd or 4th on the totem pole, most of the fight I am well within the other 3 DPS we are bringing to the savage tier.

If we're talking about bringing the class more inline with other "Greedy" dps, then there are a few things I can see needing to happen:

1) Increase the potency of a few skills and/or combo skills (Not a massive bump but even something within the wheel house of 25-50 potency depending on the skills they choose.)

2) It would be nice if Wildfire actually felt meaningful as an ability that I'm supposed to be chaining Hypercharge with. Currently an entire cycle of Wildfire only equates to a DH/Crit of Chain Saw/Drill/Air Anchor. Perhaps to remedy this an increase in potency of the explosion at the end in conjunction with a small fire DoT afterwards could make it feel like it's worth using more.

3) Queen just had a re-work; however, I am seeing a glaring issue in how it's being handled considering the timer reduction. When you initiate Queen, the summoning timer for her ticks down 3 seconds before she actually starts doing any DPS. If on her landing, she could do some sort of initial landing AoE damage that could minimize this 3 second delay, it would be swell.

[CKNovel]

Currently MCH is my main this tier; I don't think it's NEARLY as bad as people are making it out to be TBH. While at the end of the fight I might find myself in 3rd or 4th on the totem pole, most of the fight I am well within the other 3 DPS we are bringing to the savage tier.

Pure DPS will most likely end up on the top of the pole due to their lack of rDPS and how they scale well with the party member rDPS.
It's after that Pure DPS are taxed.
The problem is that Dancer and Bard can go quite higher while providing utility.

Also it seems you are currently progging P6S if I'm not mistaken?
Don't you think your output would be much more valuable if you experienced the whole tier?
P5S can be passed quite easily regardless of the DPS.

[FadingCosmos]

Imma just quickly throw this here if incase its seen by a GM/dev

My personal buffs to MCH (not all, just pick one)

1. +10 potency on Heat Blast and allow wildfire to crit/direct hit/critical direct hit when it goes off.

2. +20 potency added to Drill, Air Anchor, and Chain saw

Will this put MCH above DNC/BRD? first option i don't think so, second option I think it would. Just would liked to see a quick buff to MCH bc there less people currently cleared P8S than PLD and WAR

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Imma just quickly throw this here if incase its seen by a GM/dev

My personal buffs to MCH (not all, just pick one)

1. +10 potency on Heat Blast and allow wildfire to crit/direct hit/critical direct hit when it goes off.

2. +20 potency added to Drill, Air Anchor, and Chain saw

Will this put MCH above DNC/BRD? first option i don't think so, second option I think it would. Just would liked to see a quick buff to MCH bc there less people currently cleared P8S than PLD and WAR

In a vacuum, assuming it will, keep note that BRD and DNC heavily benefit from any damage buffs literally any other job receives, as the RDPS contribution counts towards them - meaning they will continue to provide more value unless Machinist is the only job getting any damage boost in a vacuum.

Which is probably unlikely given the state of RDM and possibly SMN.