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  1. #1
    Player
    MichiKyou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    248
    Character
    Mevra Noor
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 81

    [Machinist Thread] Machinist Discussion 6.2 Onwards

    Hey Devs,

    I don't expect anyone to be reading this, really. Im not sure if they are aware there is an issue with Machinist.

    But I'd like to address the issue of the utility and DPS that Machinist bring to the party.

    Currently Machinist do not have any raidwide buffs for the party - but overall are performing lower than most bards and dancers. Machinist is a far more technically difficult job to play and even playing optimally we are not performing as well as we should.

    If our class brings as much utility to the fight as a samurai, we should be doing on average around the same amount of damage. Not 1k dps lower.

    Does anyone know what else they can do to machinist to fix it, potency buffs are a short term solution - we have issues with heat/battery. I'd love to see those addressed more.
    (3)
    Last edited by MichiKyou; 09-19-2022 at 07:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    ShimAoki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Posts
    47
    Character
    Shim Aoki
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    The Job site says "Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions." So if this is what a Phys ranged is, then what is mch? Must be a limited job for deep dungeons lol.
    (13)

  3. #3
    Player
    Reinhardt_Azureheim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,570
    Character
    Reinhardt Azureheim
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ShimAoki View Post
    The Job site says "Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions." So if this is what a Phys ranged is, then what is mch? Must be a limited job for deep dungeons lol.
    Not the most popular opinion, but I have been thinking for a while now that the "greedy dps" archetype does not work for a job in a role based around free mobility and providing party buffs (damage, mitigation, healing, diverse).

    I currently see scenarios:

    1.) Everything stays or buffs are insignificant, asking yourself "why should I bring Machinist FULLSTOP?"
    2.) Machinist gets buffed damage to compete if not have a slight edge over BRD / DNC, "why bring DNC / BRD?"
    3.) Machinist gets buffed damage to reach close to BLM / SAM - "why bring SAM / BLM if MCH does almost as much without any restrictions?"

    Personal suggestion: Machinist needs to go back to the days of Stormblood / Heavensward in terms of being a Ranged DPS that will provide support abilities to keep them competitive with other Ranged DPS and keeping the damage in similar ranges.

    Suggested abilities:

    Palisade - 90s CD, provides -20% physical reduction taken to target (alternative -10% generic reduction) [Eq. to Minne + Curing Waltz]

    "Hypercharge"* - 120s, buff / debuff enhancing damage dealt (on target) or a different stat [Eq. to Battle Voice + Tech. Step]
    * = placeholder name, not necessarily the same ability

    Dismantle - same Dismantle from Stormblood and prior, essentially a "Reprisal" of sorts unique to MCH in this case.

    Feel free to disagree, but at least in my opinion it is the best to make MCH a utility dps again.
    (4)

  4. #4
    Player
    ChaozK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    572
    Character
    Baal Mirtaq
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    3.) Machinist gets buffed damage to reach close to BLM / SAM - "why bring SAM / BLM if MCH does almost as much without any restrictions?"
    MCH doesnt really need to out-contribute SAM or even BLM, it does however need to out-contribute at least the ranged dps that bring utility as it itself has none.
    Or alternatively give it defensive utility on par with BRD and DNC.
    (10)

  5. #5
    Player
    Tsumdere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Ishgard
    Posts
    1,103
    Character
    Fia Mortivault
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim View Post
    Feel free to disagree, but at least in my opinion it is the best to make MCH a utility dps again.
    I do disagree.

    I hate this idea that every single job in a role needs to be the same thing. People bitch and moan about other jobs being homogenized but it's always "just make MCH utility job... and homogenize it". This is what people jump to instead of say... giving MCH the PvP Blast Shot as their basic combo.

    All buffing MCH higher would do would be legitimize double phys ranged comps and give MCH players reasons to play it outside of aesthetic. DNC and BRD will still be hard lock-ins for speeds/parsing/comfort. Melee will still play melee and prefer to play melee. BLMs will still play BLM and prefer to play BLM.

    And it is ALWAYS non-MCH players trying to give their idea on what should happen instead of actual MCH players. I would despise being made yet another support bitch in service of melee and their job fantasy.

    No homogenization. Give MCH big DPS.
    (18)

  6. #6
    Player
    SkyEdge1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    105
    Character
    Sky Narukami
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 80
    So not to hard disagree with you but to be honest the selfish DPS thing is starting to weigh a little stale for me as well. It may not have to be in line with BRD or DNC levels of utility but giving MCH nothing (when it used have a decent kit) makes the DPS gap hurt just so much more, you need to give Selfish DPS SO much more just to keep them in line with support/utility jobs the moment you step into any kind of coordinated content.
    I dont want to devalue your stance, but I do belive we are starting to see the cracks show in this type of design philosophy for dps. If it all comes down to potency then the design is fundamentally boring and adding potency will simply keep it boring.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Risvertasashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,706
    Character
    Makani Risvertasashi
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaozK View Post
    MCH doesnt really need to out-contribute SAM or even BLM, it does however need to out-contribute at least the ranged dps that bring utility as it itself has none.
    Or alternatively give it defensive utility on par with BRD and DNC.
    It does if you look at adps. The only jobs that out-DPS machinists on personal damage are the melees and black mage.

    It's buffs where it falls behind.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Renathras's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,747
    Character
    Ren Thras
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Risvertasashi View Post
    It does if you look at adps. The only jobs that out-DPS machinists on personal damage are the melees and black mage.

    It's buffs where it falls behind.
    I genuinely don't understand why people keep bringing this up in all these discussions. Do people not read the definition of aDPS vs rDPS?

    No one is choosing Jobs based on aDPS for raid slots. "Well, you bring a total of 8,000 aDPS but 0 buffs so only 8,000 rDPS while your competitor brings 6,000 aDPS but their buffs add up to another 4,000 so they're bringing 10,000 total DPS to the party to take the boss down and beat enrage..."

    What matters is total DPS. If that didn't matter and aDPS is what mattered, no one would bring BRD and DNC.

    .

    MCH needs...something.

    It's in a role with a "tax". So either the tax needs to go away (entirely or at least be waived for MCH) or it has to have a different identity. RDM could do so much less damage than BLM and SMN in ShB and BLM in EW because Verraise. DNC's personal damage can be low because its buff damage is high.

    Either MCH needs to be a selfish DPS that actually BRINGS THE DPS and is in the top 5 if not top 3 Jobs for DPS, or it needs to be given SOME kind of serious utility. Whether this is competing directly with BRD and DNC in damage buffs, is given defensive buffs (though those age poorly as a tier goes on) or a combat raise (Defibrilate comes to mind), it either needs one of those or it needs to seriously be top damage. Not that everyone knows the only Jobs that don't have 100% uptime are BLM and RDM, there's zero reason for that tax to continue to exist, and certainly to apply to MCH.
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player MagiusNecros's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    3,205
    Character
    Bastilaa Shan
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by ShimAoki View Post
    The Job site says "Physical ranged DPS attack foes from a distance. They excel at inflicting sustained damage, and also provide support for companions." So if this is what a Phys ranged is, then what is mch? Must be a limited job for deep dungeons lol.
    *intense Blue Mage noises*
    (1)

  10. #10
    Player Seraphor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Posts
    4,620
    Character
    Seraphor Vhinasch
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    MCH does need potency buffs to start with. It's not a "short term" solution, it's a baseline step. MCH is supposed to be the 'selfish' phys ranged dps, yet is still far, far behind BRD and DNC.

    At a minimum it needs a potency increase to it's main combo and Wildfire. It already has a half-decent burst.


    It terms of group support, I'd say stick with the 'selfish' dps aspect as far as raid buffs go so it's still dealing all of it's own damage, but grant it non-dmg utility.
    Something like a party shield or something, considering DNC has Curing Waltz and Improvised Finish, while BRD has single target buffs like Wardens Peaen and Natures Minne.
    Another option could be an Expedience style speed buff, considering it has no mobility skill like the other two.
    (0)

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