How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Supersnow845]

snip.

Oh yeah I forgot about this since I ran out of daily posts

I’m legit impressed you managed to misinterpret every single piece of data I gave you in one shot, I’m kinda impressed, first point, the data might be a bit outdated but at least I have data, you have legit nothing but anecdotes and making posts so long people can’t be bothered replying to you

Second point I’m amazed that you, you know didn’t realise that if a major change is followed by the job satisfaction crashing for a job the change wasn’t popular, almost nobody who played healers at the time liked the changes and that data reflects it

Third point, why the hell are you adding those up, they include people who have more than one job at 90 so none of those bars can be added, fact is non WHM healers are some of the least popular classes to have at level 90

Fourth point yeah all survey data is online polls and unofficial, I’m amazed you somehow managed to both wave that poll off as being totally unofficial but also zeroed in on one of 4 polls saying the healers are “kinda okay” and then made your entire point that they are “kinda okay”

Nobody is saying you can’t like current healers but until you present some evidence they are popular rather than roundabout refutations to my data I’m pretty confident in my original point that the healer role is dying

[Renathras]

Oh yeah I forgot about this since I ran out of daily posts

I’m legit impressed you managed to misinterpret every single piece of data I gave you in one shot, I’m kinda impressed, first point, the data might be a bit outdated but at least I have data, you have legit nothing but anecdotes and making posts so long people can’t be bothered replying to you

Second point I’m amazed that you, you know didn’t realise that if a major change is followed by the job satisfaction crashing for a job the change wasn’t popular, almost nobody who played healers at the time liked the changes and that data reflects it

Third point, why the hell are you adding those up, they include people who have more than one job at 90 so none of those bars can be added, fact is non WHM healers are some of the least popular classes to have at level 90

Fourth point yeah all survey data is online polls and unofficial, I’m amazed you somehow managed to both wave that poll off as being totally unofficial but also zeroed in on one of 4 polls saying the healers are “kinda okay” and then made your entire point that they are “kinda okay”

Nobody is saying you can’t like current healers but until you present some evidence they are popular rather than roundabout refutations to my data I’m pretty confident in my original point that the healer role is dying

Where to begin?

Data that is old beyond a point (or when something significant has changed) isn't valid. It's not "at least I have data" if it's BAD data. Like after an election, you can't cite Presidential Approval (of the prior office holder who no longer is in office) as if it's the approval rating of the successor. There's a point where data becomes bad. Citing 5.0 data in 6.2 is bad data as so much has changed - despite you likely wanting to argue otherwise - which is why I asked if there was ANY 6.0 or later data you had (other than just the numbers of people with max level weapons)

I don't make posts "so long people can't be bothered replying". I cut the posts down and quote individual people so if they want to respond they can instead of making dozens of posts and clogging a thread that way.

EDIT:

On the second point - no, that doesn't mean the change wasn't popular. It means the change wasn't popular with PRIOR PLAYERS OF THAT JOB. That isn't the same argument as the change isn't popular WITH HEALERS AS A WHOLE or WITH THE PLAYERS AS A WHOLE, which is a separate argument. How do you determine that latter question? By doing what I said and having a survey once removed from the passions of the moment. That then will tell you if the changes were long-term unpopular. Remember how everyone hated Expedient seeing it in the Job trailer? If you took a poll on Expedient right after the Job trailer for Endwalker, the overwhelming view was it was trash, SCH was a dead Job, and SGE was going to be the most popular healer ever. Now we're in 6.2. How did that pan out? Expedient was so popular - and powerful - it had to be nerfed and people are talking about how SGE is the least played in high end content.

"why the hell are you adding those up"? Because it's the only way to meaningfully use the data! I'm sorry actually USING the data you provided disproves your point. YES, people have more than one Job at 90; which means you even posting the data is 100% meaningless. How many SMNs are SCH alts that are never played? How many people leveled a Melee Job just so they could do the Role Quests? Yet YOU presented that data as-is because you WANT it to say "look how unpopular healers are", completely ignoring the caveats you now are introducing to limit my critique of the data and my pointing out that, if anything, it says healers are actually fairly popular today AS A ROLE, which is what we're discussing, not individual Jobs.

Fourth point, I'm amazed at your ability to gaslight. I noted the problem with all the data you presented, but still in a "benefit of the doubt" way, chose to engage in it to actually show you why it doesn't support your position. Even the data YOU CITE says healers are "kinda okay", and your own post used the accurate phrase "middle of the pack". Middle is not bottom. Middle is not last. It isn't first, sure, but that's not what we're arguing. We're arguing if healing is horribly unpopular, "the healer role is dying", to use your words.

The data - YOUR data - clearly indicates it is very much not.

.

Again, as I've said before, hyperbole kills these discussions.

It's absolutely hyperbolic to say the healer role is dying, or is even the least popular in the game. It is absolutely hyperbolic to use extremely dated surveys that don't capture the current moods at all to make that case.

Healing may not be in the best place, but it's hardly in the worst, much less "dying". Indeed, subjectively by reading around the webs, it seems the Caster role is the one in most need of change, and the Job in the game in most dire straights is MCH. Criterion Dungeons (which don't allow combat raise) are going to quickly show SMN and RDM being underperformers since so much of their balance is based on them having a combat raise. And MCH is already doing fairly abysmally across various metrics. There's also a real fear that WAR may dominate the tanking scene in Criterions.

These are all upcoming major concerns, and some of them are reflective of current concerns (e.g. the SMN/RDM low damage numbers) as-is.

[Supersnow845]

Where to begin?.

I love how you just make the statement oh yes things have changed, what things, oh you know things, the healer role is exactly the same as it was in 5.x and has received no major changes other than SGE which didn’t move the dial on anything, the same classes are still meta, the same skills are still used, all we got was like 1.5 new souls per healer, so you know data from ShB can be used because it shows exactly where there was a turning point in healer design

And no you can’t just go “yeah but you were annoyed because your main got lobotomised, but MCH mains don’t see a problem with new SCH so it’s all fine”, job satisfaction crashing after a major change is the cleanest way of showing a change was unpopular, and the fact that it didn’t recover from 5.0-5.25 shows it was a sustained bad decision

And no adding those points up says absolutely nothing because you are counting people multiple times, 750k or so people have SCH at level 90, about 850k or so have PLD at 90, adding all 4 healer bars together and going “see look at all the healers” is not how you interpret that data because then it all comes down to (as you even said in your “interpretation”) how many jobs are within the role

And I said “kinda okay” with the caveat that raids don’t work without healer mains and that data is not a good look for healers, there is little to no data for endwalker I’ve found the most up to date data there is, but if you want to wave that away as “old data” when none of the healers have functionally changed in any meaningful way (no you pre-empting that argument doesn’t invalidate it) then go ahead, it’s obvious that you don’t really care what I have to say

On the subject of expedient if you actually believe that people were clowning on the skill and not how square chose to display it then that’s a reading comprehension issue

[T-Owl]

See this?

Don't do this again.

Ever.

I will not be kind the next time you do it.

(And you call me toxic and aggressive? Seriously: Don't do this again.)

There's a saying in the military: An army marches on its stomach. What this means is that without logistics, all wars are lost causes. Your argument here is essentially if you aren't a front line rifleman, you aren't contributing to the war effort and you aren't needed. Yet an army of only riflemen will lose every war. The fact you have a child's level of understanding of this topic is obvious, but if you press this button again, I'm going to be much more...direct...in slapping it down. This is thrice you've now done it, and Thrice Comes Ruin.

You are literally threatening me here. Thats an implicit threat. Like, maybe don't threaten people if you want others to take your whole "I want to support others"-Attitude seriously and not consider you toxic and unhinged?

Again, as I've said before, hyperbole kills these discussions.

It's absolutely hyperbolic to say the healer role is dying, or is even the least popular in the game. It is absolutely hyperbolic to use extremely dated surveys that don't capture the current moods at all to make that case.

Healing may not be in the best place, but it's hardly in the worst, much less "dying". Indeed, subjectively by reading around the webs, it seems the Caster role is the one in most need of change, and the Job in the game in most dire straights is MCH. Criterion Dungeons (which don't allow combat raise) are going to quickly show SMN and RDM being underperformers since so much of their balance is based on them having a combat raise. And MCH is already doing fairly abysmally across various metrics. There's also a real fear that WAR may dominate the tanking scene in Criterions.

These are all upcoming major concerns, and some of them are reflective of current concerns (e.g. the SMN/RDM low damage numbers) as-is.

Having played multiple MMOs my whole life, the only reason to like FF14s healers really is either enjoying the idea of dpsing while healing because FF14 made it mainstream before WoW and still has a higher DPS focus than WoW, the superficial animations without regard for gameplay or never having played any MMO before and having no point of comparison what proper healer gameplay looks like. I mean, again, look at WoW. Can you make up any explanation how FF14s healer design is not objectively shit compared to what its biggest competitor came up with in terms of their healer classes, healing styles and healing gameplay?