How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

Yes, altough a niche game, I LOVED Geomancer in FF Explorers. ...

Never played that game, but agree all around with your points on FFXIV and healing in general. I've played a number of MMOs, and while none are perfect, some do a better job of having healers kind of sub-spec into other roles. Everquest had healers that were sub-defined as being able to off-dps, off-buff, off-debuff. WoW had some healers a bit better at DPSing with some having more buff options. FFXI has several healer sub-specs (largely based on which secondary Job you pick for WHM and SCH, the two "actual healer" Jobs, though some others have managed to poke into healing from time to time, like RDM), where they can double down on healer or branch into buffing the party, debuffing the enemy, or flex into being decent at additional party damage.

We have 4 healing Jobs in FFXIV. The players make the meta all about damage (and everything being slapped with an Enrage mechanic kind of nudges that unhealthy direction along), but having a healer or two focused on something other than damage in their off-time would go a long way to making the role more diverse and interesting and really appeal to different player types.

AST already kind of flexes into that buffer role and has the weakest personal DPS, but it's also arguably the most complex of the healers, its buffs are a little random and wonky to use, and the aesthetic of a Tarot reader doesn't appeal to everyone. It's one of the reasons I argued for Chemist as the 4th healer, as it could have an off-buff focus role of short duration potion effects it could apply to allies via a Mix command that I think would have appealed a lot. The trick is to make the buffs as spamable as damage spells are now so the healer that does buffs can really feel like that's what they do when not actively healing.

EDIT:

1) 2) 3)

1) Eh...not from their lore. But I guess to each their own.

2) In what world does Art of War look like Holy 3? Adlo like Cure 2? Medica 2 like Succor? You have to squint REALLY hard before their abilities look alike.

3) It's about the player. I find MCH fun to play and BRD a headache because my brain doesn't track DoT timers well. On healers, my DoTs often fall off - probably for just a sec or two - but I have no idea how long. When I try to play BRD, I catch myself refreshing my DoTs when they have about 12-15 seconds on them (meaning my brain DOES do the 30 sec thing moderately well...), but then I'm playing BRD bad. But MCH I find easy. Metronome 1-2-3. I think this really comes down to taste. You may LOVE pressing one button every 29 seconds like clockwork and pressing the same 1 button over and over again for the 27.5 seconds in between. Me personally, I hate that and would much prefer a 1-2-3 I can hit over and over to have my animations change up a smidge and feel slightly more engaged but in a good way as opposed to the DoT, which is a bad way.

Also, no you didn't used to have to weave as much as now. We didn't have even half this many oGCDs in HW, I don't think, especially not on WHM. I think it was ShB when we went to having more oGCDs than GCDs. Part of that was making abilities force upgrade (e.g. Stone 1 -> Stone 2) cutting down on some of the GCDs that were redundant anyway, but we simply didn't have that many oGCDs. At the end of ARR, SCH had Atherflow, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, and Bane (AF spenders), and 4 Faerie abilities, 2 from each Faerie, and something else (was Shadow Flare oGCD? I genuinely don't recall...) vs Ruin, Ruin 2, Leeches, Physic, Adlo, Succor, Resurrection, Bio, Bio 2, and Miasma. And that's not counting cross-class spells. I believe the oGCD > GCD became a thing in ShB, though it might have been SB for SCH. For WHM, it was absolutely ShB.

I'm not opposed to SCH having DoTs, I'm just confused why a person would think DoTs are its lore (when the actual Job quests don't mention DoTs directly in any way I can think of) but that Faeries AREN'T part of their lore, when the Job quests REVOLVE around helping Lily get back her memories as the initial crux of the SCH lore the player is introduced to, and the lore continues this, going into how the Faeries were each tied to a different Job Stone, Amdapor kidnapping them, and so on and so forth. I just don't understand how you could NOT see Faeries as part of SCH lore when their lore is centered on them.

...and, for the record, if you read my posts again, you'd see I'm talking about healers collectively and DoTs, not just SCH. I even said (and have multiple times) with 4 healers, why not have a DoT one, a 1-2-3 one, a priority system (e.g. RDM Stone/Fire procs) one (probably SGE for that one), and a simple nuke spell, possibly with a second spell proc or single DoT. That's been my argument for a while. We have 4 healers, why must they all have identical DPS kits?

There's a fairly easy way to fix it: add MP cost to Toxikon.

Maybe, but then it becomes an optimization issue and arguably reduces the use case of Toxicon.

Edit:

And on the topic of dots: one advantage of them is, that if you have multiple dots on different timers, you have a constantly shifting rotation which I find far more engaging than a basic, generic 123 combo. And unlike cooldowns, there is also the option to refresh them earlier to take a lower dps loss than losing a full GCD.
Ideally they also offer something like Thundercloud proc or any form of interaction with the kit but even without that, 3 dots on different timers offer more engagement for me than a 123 combo where I can only ever press 2 after 1 and 3 after 2.
If we're talking about multiple branching combos like MNK had, then I'm down for it. It would need more buttons but constantly switching between branching combos would offer more variety for downtime as well.
It all boils down to breaking up monotony for me, anything that isn't easily predictable and rigid.

I think this mainly depends on the player.

When I'm doing DPS, I want it as close to rigid as possible. My mind doesn't work for DPS - that's why I play healers and occasionally tanks. If my brain worked well for complex DPS rotations, I'd be playing MNK. I like simple, and rigid means easy to keep my place in. As such, I far prefer a 1-2-3 static rotation to something bouncing all over the place.

In ShB, wanna know what my go-to DPS Job was?

SMN.

Yes, SMN.

Because say what you will about complexity, the Job was rigid in a 2 min window. There was a little flexibility, but it was STATIC flexibility. There weren't procs, the rotation didn't CHANGE. You had some instant casts and you needed to use 4 of them per 1 min cycle (and stock 4 for Bahamut in the back half of that cycle), but once you figured out fights, you could map them out to where you were always using them at the same place. Or you could Yolo it and press them for movement, with the caveat if you were within 15 sec of the next Trance, you'd blow through any you still had unless you wanted to get fancy with the log ping crazy-weave going into Firebird.

Point is, things that seem complex to some people can seem simple to others AND vice verse; things that seem easy to some may be complex to others.

Some of you like variability to prevent "boredom", some of us like consistency and a set pattern since it's for a thing we're being forced to do that we really don't even like doing anyway.

Everyone's different.

Again, it's why I think we should really flex us having four healers to address this - we could easily have both a multi-DoT rotation, no-DoT rigid rotation, a no-DoT proc/variable rotation, and a EW era nuke+DoT rotation. Having 4 healers means these four playstyles could coexist side by side by side by side, and players could then pick the one they like best from there.

The thing is though is that the healers as they stand are very badly designed for the combat system of XIV and no job should be subjected to 1 button being roughly 80% of their casting focus. It's just not healthy design. Every healer should be reworked to have a healthy library of GCD actions they rely on, and the undeniable truth of FFXIV's foundational design is that it does not require much healing even in some of the hardest fights in the game. So while not every healer needs to have a DPS focus, all of them need to be designed within respects to DPS contributions, hense the AST example I've vomited more than enough times on the forum rewarding buff usage with passive Malefic-potency damage. There still has to be restrictions on that system though, whether that be MP, cooldowns, or external resources like lilies, there can't just be free, unlimited healing that also deals as much damage as filler spells. Every healer will need to eventually return to some filler spell usage. There is a lot we can do to reduce that from 80% down to something far more manageable, but the healers can't just stay as they are if we ever want to see healthier design.

The problem with this argument is, it's you wanting everything to be EXACTLY like you want and you wanting to actively exclude anyone who plays different.

That'd be like a GNB main demanding all four tanks have a cartridge system and 1 min burst, or a BLM main demanding every dps Job have a DoT with procs and two phases of burn and regen that they shift between. No other role has all Jobs within it having an identical rotation. Why should healers?

Considering balance is ultimately just a matter of numbers, they could legitimately make all healers have the same DPS contributions if they wanted to based off of that. The only place it gets wonky is group buffs because if the DNC buffs a SAM vs buffing a MCH, the end result will be rather different.

And I'm not sure ONE healer staying as it is ISN'T healthy. Keep in mind that the problem is arguably that the healers are all identical. Meaning having 3 change and 1 remain the same would remove that problem and thus be an improvement. But if 3 changed to be exactly the same, or if all 4 changed to be the same, just different than the same that they are now, neither of those are particularly good "improvements".

AGAIN: We have FOUR healers.

Let's have them each be different.

To wit:

SCH began its identity as a healer that focused on DoT management and enfeebling enemies with debuffs that made them weaker with tools like Virus and Eye for an Eye and this was the core aspect of SCH's identity up until ShB. That's a playstyle many people enjoyed, myself included, and now it's gone and we're not allowed to play it. I think that's something that should've been respected, and if it's not a playstyle you enjoyed, then it probably wasn't the best job for you. It would be nice if each healer had their own unique styles, that way if one healer didn't appeal to you, there's a chance another might. And that's also why I hope we continue to see new healers in the future, even if they're released slowly. But that does of course imply that healers gain the freedom to have unique playstyles apart from one another.

THIS I actually agree with.

.

But this...not so much:

Absolutely incorrect. The Scholars of Nym were Arcanists to begin with, you can go to the Lodestone page for Scholar to read the blurb that says - "In an age long past, when mankind flourished under the radiance of arcane mastery, the island of Vylbrand was home to a city-state called Nym."
The link to ACN to SCH isn't in name alone, it's built into the lore and still is, regardless of you liking that or not. In fact, the original 1.0 lore for Arcanist was supposed to be centered around a plague - Las Vegas Fanfest 2014: “In Limsa Lominsa, the original Arcanist quest that was supposed to be released in 1.0 was actually about this disease spreading around La Noscea called the Green Rot. It would infect all of these people and they would die. To make money off of this, a bunch of merchants would try to smuggle in snake oils and tonics and things like that, and try to sell those to the people dying so they could get their money because they knew they were going to die anyway and were desperate."
Sound familiar? Seems almost like how Scholar's entire job questline and lore is dealing with plagues... so fitting for Miasma, Shadow Flare, Bane, etc to be apart of SCH's kit. Much more than Eos or Selene using attacks - something they have NEVER done.

If we're going to bring up the "lore" argument when it comes to gameplay, this is why wanting the fae gauge to have damage associated with it wouldn't work. "These learned men and women defended the freedom of their tiny nation with their unique command over spell-weaving faeries, utilizing the creatures' magicks to heal the wounded and bolster the strength of their allies." Outside of that, the faeries shouldn't have damage associated with them at all, because it throws Scholar's healing priority out of alignment when the faeries have always been Scholar's main source of totally free healing.



Scholar has not moved forward at all, it has been a continual worsening of the job. For every one good thing Scholar gets, it gets two good things taken away from it. I have no idea why you would think that something like SB SCH wouldn't be viable in today's content - is that based off of your experiences healing in Savage on SCH this tier?

Just a couple points:

"arcane" in this context means "magic". It's talking about the Fifth Era which was dominated by Mage nations, of which there were 12 that gradually whittled down to 3 - the Black Mage nation of Mhach ("'Mhach, Mhach, beware the dark! Stay away or lose your heart...' THAT Mhach?!"), the White Mage nation of Amdapor, and the Scholar/Marine nation of Nym. The age that ended in the "War of the Magi" and the Calamity of Water because of how overtapped out the magical reserves of the land were from all that magic being thrown around. That's what it means there, not "Arcanist".

The 1.0 lore that never was doesn't have much bearing on the 2.0 lore that is. The lore that they wanted to keep they kept, and the lore they didn't, they either retconned out or ignored so it would quietly go away. Moreover, "dealing with plagues" can mean "curing plagues". Doctors giving people vaccines so they don't die isn't the same thing as doctors spreading bioweapons. While the knowledge to cure a plague might include the ability to start one, that doesn't mean HEALERS trying to HEAL people suffering from a plague actively traffic in spreading plagues, either. That's like arguing doctors that treat gunshot wounds actively go out and get into gunfights with people on the daily.

I do agree that the Faeries shouldn't deal damage...directly. One could argue "bolster their allies" could include party damage buffs like haste or the like. Which is bad under the modern gearing/meta, but buffs that increase damage could fall under "bolster the strength of their allies" just fine.

And SCH has not "been a continual worsening of the job". I get that some people REALLY DON'T LIKE IT, but SCH is still the top of the healing game now as it was in SB. The Job has improved in quite a few ways. Whether the net result is positive or negative is subjective, not objective. It's far less clunky than HW/SB era SCH was, for example.

because literally nobody likes new SCH better than old SCH

I'm not sure you know what the definition of the word "literally" is.

Well strictly from a game design standpoint, the assets associated with Miasma (as well as Miasma II and Miasma III) and Shadowflare were made and still exist for use. That's not to say new abilities shouldn't be made, but if we're trying to restore SCH's identity as a more offensive healer, then why not use the tools already at their disposal? Because you specifically are not a fan of them? And I don't meant that to sound mean or harsh, but there's not a real reason as to why those tools don't work on SCH. And SCH's identity also included those spells. SCH's identity as an offensive DoT healer was defined by its combination of those spells and its barriers.

I think, if we really distill it, SCH is defined thus:

A healer who leverages their Faerie to assist them in combat and has a general command of defensive and healing magics, with some skill in offensive magics.

This is (minus the Faerie, I believe), also how FFXI SCH works (which...I believe was the more or less OG incarnation of the Job as the only one prior to it in the series was, what, FF3's?). I've only read about it, but FFXI's SCH basically has a light and dark stance for healing and damage, making it decent with both white and black magic. Basically like FFXIV RDM if PvE RDM played a smidge more like PvP RDM.

I also agree reusing existing assets isn't at terrible idea, but that's just for leveling. Broil IV isn't Ruin 6. Indeed, the Ruin spell-line DOES continue...for SMN...into Ruin 3 and 4. SCH's Job spells tend to all switch up the names anyway, and EVERY Job switches up animations. Even Dosis 3 doesn't look much like Dosis 1.

As far as her sass - she's responding to where someone told her she was probably playing the wrong Job earlier, I'd wager.

[Rilifane]

Maybe, but then it becomes an optimization issue and arguably reduces the use case of Toxicon.

And that would be worse how exactly?
We currently get 3 free stacks and then avoid the skill like the plague in a 10min fight. I never claimed it would fix all issues but if "too op" really is your only concern, I provided a very simple and very effective fix - limit it by MP cost that are too high to make it spammable. That's all. It would certainly be better than what we currently have and even offer a little bit of a skill ceiling. Having something to optimize isn't a bad thing.

[ty_taurus]

And that would be worse how exactly?
We currently get 3 free stacks and then avoid the skill like the plague in a 10min fight. I never claimed it would fix all issues but if "too op" really is your only concern, I provided a very simple and very effective fix - limit it by MP cost that are too high to make it spammable. That's all. It would certainly be better than what we currently have and even offer a little bit of a skill ceiling. Having something to optimize isn't a bad thing.

A really easy way to fix the issue with Toxikon while making SGE more fun to play would be firstly to either buff Toxikon to double Dosis potency or have it combo into another Dosis potency OGCD attack used right after Toxikon.

From there, simply reworking how Addersgall/Addersting are obtained slightly. Instead of generating normally over time, SGE gets a new DPS button that generates 1 Addersgall and 1 Addersting, has a 20 second cooldown on the GCD, and has 2 charges. Then whenever you activate Kardia healing, your gauge increases by 2. When your guage is 50 or higher, your next E. Diag or E. Prog grants 1 Addersting. The Addersting generation on E. Diag breaking is removed.

You get an extra button that now combos into Toxikon every 20 seconds, gain occasional value to using a GCD barrier heal, and have a bit more of a fluid gameplay loop. I still think more is needed to make SGE great, but that would be a really strong step forward.

[Renathras]

And that would be worse how exactly?
We currently get 3 free stacks and then avoid the skill like the plague in a 10min fight. I never claimed it would fix all issues but if "too op" really is your only concern, I provided a very simple and very effective fix - limit it by MP cost that are too high to make it spammable. That's all. It would certainly be better than what we currently have and even offer a little bit of a skill ceiling. Having something to optimize isn't a bad thing.

Fair enough.

There probably are some solutions to be had. I guess the important thing is just to bring up options and see if anything sticks out as a good solution to employ.

A really easy way to fix the issue with Toxikon while making SGE more fun to play would be firstly to either buff Toxikon to double Dosis potency or have it combo into another Dosis potency OGCD attack used right after Toxikon.

From there, simply reworking how Addersgall/Addersting are obtained slightly. Instead of generating normally over time, SGE gets a new DPS button that generates 1 Addersgall and 1 Addersting, has a 20 second cooldown on the GCD, and has 2 charges. Then whenever you activate Kardia healing, your gauge increases by 2. When your guage is 50 or higher, your next E. Diag or E. Prog grants 1 Addersting. The Addersting generation on E. Diag breaking is removed.

One argument I've seen is changing Rhizo to generate Addersting (and either making it a 60 sec CD or giving it 2 charges). And, honestly, it's one of SGE's most lackluster abilities, so having some extra function there might be just what the doctor ordered.

EDIT:

I love how you just make the statement oh yes things have changed, what things, oh you know things,

I can go into more depth, if you like? Off the top of my head:

- 1.5 spamcast to allow more weaving
- Differentiation into Pure and Barrier Healers (for whatever that's worth in practice)
- The removal of a spec (nAST) and addition of a new Healer Job (SGE)
- The new capstone abilities, particularly Expedient
- SCH pet changes, both in terms of potency and responsiveness
- Ability/Button changes (like Consolation being merged with Seraph)
- Tuning changes (like Misery being DPS neutral, which wasn't true in 5.X nor in 6.0)
- Party changes that affect Healers (like tank active mitigation abilities)
- All of the new abilities added overall as well as charge gains on existing abilities (Benison, Aquaveil, etc)
- Encounter design changes and how they work with these abilities (for example, more short pulses of multi-hit damage; the addition of strong bleed debuffs)

That's just a few things off the top of my head that might make zero difference to you, but we're not talking about just you, we're talking about every healer in the game collectively. Indeed, note how SCH is at the bottom of the list in satisfaction in the 5.0 poll, but is 7th most played and most played healer in the 6.2 JP data. While the latter is of "main" so we don't know if they're all satisfied, it's probably reasonable to assume people picking it more means they don't HATE it, and it is more played by the JP base than the others. The data you provided seems to indicate there's been a change over time.

The healer role is not, it seems, "exactly the same as it was in 5.x" unless you squint so hard that a WHM looks like a SAM. You do the same thing you accuse me of, btw, insisting there were no changes, pointing out some things that changed, but insisting they didn't really do anything.

And no you can’t just go “yeah but you were annoyed because your main got lobotomised,

I'm curious what argument you think I'm making?

I'm not saying you can't be annoyed or that feelings of annoyance aren't valid.

I'm saying that those feelings do not persist to players who started or picked up a Job after the change and don't have that emotional attachment to its previous form. There are many cases of irl things where people who are with it when there is a change hate it, but new people who are introduced to it after the change love it.

job satisfaction crashing after a major change is the cleanest way of showing a change was unpopular,

WITH THE PEOPLE who didn't like the change or liked the prior state. You know as well as I that many of those players stopped healing while we also have literally millions of new players, including hundreds of thousands, if not over a million, new healers. You think all of them identically share that opinion? What is your basis for that belief?

and the fact that it didn’t recover from 5.0-5.25 shows it was a sustained bad decision

This, on the other hand, is a decent argument. The problem with it is, it's also 3 years old. DO we know that it didn't recover after 5.25? No. DO we know it was a sustained position? No. So we don't know it was a sustained bad decision because we don't have the data to support that.

And no adding those points up says absolutely nothing because you are counting people multiple times,

O...kay. Let me ask you this question:

When you shared that data, what did you think it showed? That is, what were you trying to prove with it?

And I said “kinda okay” with the caveat that raids don’t work without healer mains

(...this exact same argument can be made for literally all mains...)

there is little to no data for endwalker I’ve found the most up to date data there is,

This does seem to be the case from me searching to see if there's new data as well. Kind of unfortunate since I'd like to see if those trends have held up or not. I suspect they have not, but data is needed to know one way or the other.

it’s obvious that you don’t really care what I have to say

That can't be obvious - because it isn't true.

I actually do care what you have to say. I disagree with a lot of it, but that doesn't mean that I don't agree with any of it, nor does it mean I don't care.

On the subject of expedient if you actually believe that people were clowning on the skill and not how square chose to display it then that’s a reading comprehension issue

If you were on this forum OR Reddit OR most any FFXIV Disc OR in the comments of any FFXIV content creator's YouTube videos - you know that people were clowning on the skill.

There were people, to their credit (not to toot, but I was one of them), pointing out that it might be a sleeper skill that would turn out to be really good. My own position was that SCH was the most powerful (clunky as all hells, but powerful) healer in ShB and likely would be in EW, despite all the shiny new toy SGE hype and people talking down SCH.

...but there were a LOT of people clowning on not only Expedient but SCH, insisting the Job was a total mess, and moreover, that no one would be playing it in 6.X with SGE there to move to instead.

Those people absolutely existed, and it wasn't a "reading comprehension issue", and I suspect even you know that.

I can use other examples of the community feeling one way but those views changing, if you don't like that one, but I suspect you realize the truth of my argument there and just don't like it...

THAT SAID:

I don't mind good discussions. If you have more data, we can talk about it, and I actually do enjoy those conversations and comparisons. As I've said a couple times now, my issue is the hyperbole and overstatement of claims. It prevents any serious discussions or solutions because the absurdity of the positions. And there's legitimately no reason for it.

You don't need to claim that 90% of people hate healing and the role is on its deathbed...to note that there are problems with the role and Jobs in it and they need changing. It could be that only 10% of people dislike the role and it's middle of the pack in terms of popularity, and that could already justify working on changes. There's no reason to overstate the case at all.

Woah, look at the badass over there. A badass who averages 60-70% GCD uptime. Sorry, lad, but someone who does nothing for a third of the fight doesn't get to talk about "understanding of the topic".

You are getting carried by your groups. End of story.

This, I will dignify with no further response other than pointing out it's a TOS violation. Good job, "lad". (I bet you think pressing oGCDs is "nothing" too, as if the buttons magically push themselves...)

[Conchoidal]

Fair enough.
I'm saying that those feelings do not persist to players who started or picked up a Job after the change and don't have that emotional attachment to its previous form. There are many cases of irl things where people who are with it when there is a change hate it, but new people who are introduced to it after the change love it.

WITH THE PEOPLE who didn't like the change or liked the prior state. You know as well as I that many of those players stopped healing while we also have literally millions of new players, including hundreds of thousands, if not over a million, new healers. You think all of them identically share that opinion? What is your basis for that belief?

Honestly I think it's a bit unfair to completely discard the opinions of the veteran players who truly have a passion for this game to have played it and engaged with the community for years in favour of newer players who have no real "loyalty" to the game or community and might leave once another shiny new MMO comes out. FFXIV doesn't have new players because of current healer design, it has it in spite of it. We will lose these new players very quickly if jobs are continually homogenised and sterilised.

[T-Owl]

Honestly I think it's a bit unfair to completely discard the opinions of the veteran players who truly have a passion for this game to have played it and engaged with the community for years in favour of newer players who have no real "loyalty" to the game or community and might leave once another shiny new MMO comes out. FFXIV doesn't have new players because of current healer design, it has it in spite of it. We will lose these new players very quickly if jobs are continually homogenised and sterilised.

We have to also consider, a great portion of new Players also comes from World of Warcraft and I can't see many of them staying engaged with the healer design of this game in the long run, compared to what they knew. WoW Healers are much more diverse and complex in terms of their different playstyles than they were at any point in FF14. Somebody who played Discipline Priest in Wow and jumps to Sage in FF14 because its advertised as similar will probably have a rough awakening after the first honeymoon phase. And that isn't really a process that only affects veteran. I only took up FF14 healing seriously in Endwalker, before I just leveled Scholar once during Stormblood. By just knowing that I am supposed to dps most of the time and use ogcd heals before casts I could already start with a hugh dps uptime and it took me mere months until I was burned out of the role due to the 1 button spam. And I played main heal in most mmos outside off ff14.

And lets be honest, the Honeymoon Phase For WoW Refugees should be about over at this point and you can see it by complaints over issues like job balance getting louder. People start to be done with the MSQ.

[Renathras]

We have to also consider, a great portion of new Players also comes from World of Warcraft and I can't see many of them staying engaged with the healer design of this game in the long run, compared to what they knew. WoW Healers are much more diverse and complex in terms of their different playstyles than they were at any point in FF14. Somebody who played Discipline Priest in Wow and jumps to Sage in FF14 because its advertised as similar will probably have a rough awakening after the first honeymoon phase. And that isn't really a process that only affects veteran.

I somewhat agree with this. It's long been amazing to me that WoW had such differences between their healers with them still being relatively well balanced and viable outside of some weirdness here and there (I remember in Vanilla/BC when Disc was "the leveling spec" for Priests until they could respect to unlock Shadow Form because it increased wand damage -and yes, you read that right. Mage was like that with Arcane, and there was even a meme in a machina video at the time, and I quote, "I'm gonna...WAND you to death!!!"). They all feel different, but generally good.

I think part of that is due to the raid size, though. When the game is tuned to encounters where you have 4-7 healers (and the number can be kinda variable based on party, team, encounter, etc) AND where players can easily swap specs (so healers can quickly swap over and DPS or Tank on fights then swap to Healer on the fights they heal), where it can be assumed you have all of them at the table together in most encounters, it's probably easier to balance than if you have only 2 and you have to balance based on (most) combinations of the two.

Though I really do agree that it would be nice to get more diversity between the Healers. There's no reason they should all have the identical "rotations" they do today.

EDIT:

Honestly I think it's a bit unfair to completely discard the opinions of the veteran players who truly have a passion for this game to have played it and engaged with the community for years in favour of newer players who have no real "loyalty" to the game or community and might leave once another shiny new MMO comes out. FFXIV doesn't have new players because of current healer design, it has it in spite of it. We will lose these new players very quickly if jobs are continually homogenised and sterilised.

Good thing...I'm not doing that, then?

I didn't say to "completely discard" them. I'm saying you have to weigh them against others. For example, my main in SB _WAS_ SCH. Want to know the two things I hated about SB SCH?

1) DoTs - because I hate DoTs in general as a gameplay mechanic.
2) Having to macro Eos.

In ShB, they removed the latter and MORE OR LESS removed the former. So not every veteran agreed with the concensus position. Moreover - and this was my point - many people warmed to it after playing it a bunch (especially later in ShB - 5.3 and on) and many new healers or people that newly picked up SCH liked it as well. But people are often very passionate about changes, even if after living with them for a while, once those emotions die down, they reevaluate if their complaints were valid or if they were emotional responses. That was the point I was making.

I'm not saying discard their opinions, I'm saying the dated polling/survey is likely not reflective of the current situation AND likely captured a lot of emotion/passions of the time.

I also contend, to the last point, that a lot of people DO like FFXIV's healer design. I personally believe it can be improved on, but it appeals to a lot of people, including new players.

[Azuri]

This, I will dignify with no further response other than pointing out it's a TOS violation. Good job, "lad". (I bet you think pressing oGCDs is "nothing" too, as if the buttons magically push themselves...)

You are aware they are called off-GCDs because you are supposed to use them between GCDs, not instead of them?

Like, Renathras, you come here arguing how skilled healers are wrong about healing while your personal level of play is abysmal. There is nothing wrong with being bad at the game, but if you want to be having arguments, stop dismissing people for saying they only press one button. You are not managing even that.

And learn to be concise. It's really an important skill when you are trying to share ideas.

[Renathras]

You are aware they are called off-GCDs because you are supposed to use them between GCDs, not instead of them?

Like, Renathras, you come here arguing how skilled healers are wrong about healing while your personal level of play is abysmal. There is nothing wrong with being bad at the game, but if you want to be having arguments, stop dismissing people for saying they only press one button. You are not managing even that.

And learn to be concise. It's really an important skill when you are trying to share ideas.

Okay, I'll give this a bit:

1) Yes, I weave them. The problem is when I need a bunch at once because a lot of people are making mistakes. You may have a 99 parsing team of Statics, I do not. My content is PUGs and DF. Last night I had an E8 I (happily, because that's just the kind of person I am) dragged the party through. I had to hardcast several raises, even Cure 2s because all my oGCDs were on CD. My "abysmal" play is clearing content with players that are probably generally gray parsers.

2) You say my play is "abysmal", but I'm consistently parsing Green and Blue, which is "average". "average" is not "abysmal", it's average.

3) "average" is also not "bad at the game", it's "average at the game".

4) I'm "not managing even that" because I'm not even arguing that - I'm arguing no one is pressing "only" "one button". Even people that are at high levels of play aren't, but the game also cannot be balanced nor designed only around high levels of play.

5) If anything, my opinion should carry more weight - statistically, I'm an average player, and generally speaking, you want to design games around average players, not 1% of the player base. So, if anything, you should be listening to me more, not less, based on your critique. Even if you want to argue - WRONGLY - that I'm "bad" and "abysmal" instead of average, again, a large portion of this game's community are what YOU would call "bad" and "abysmal", meaning the game should be balanced around their perceptions and playstyles.

6) I was quite concise in my reply to you. But brevity isn't good when it leads to misunderstanding and confusion. Also note there's a somewhat tight post limit, so having to combine posts is necessary (especially if discussing things with lots of people), though I do need to look up those hide tags again...

EDIT:

You are literally threatening me here. Thats an implicit threat.

You literally broke TOS to attack me. And no, that's not "literally" threatening NOR an "implicit" threat. The only "threat" is that if you did it more I might report you or mouth off at you, which is a lot less toxic than what you're doing.

Like, maybe don't threaten people

Good thing I didn't threaten anyone then, isn't it? I get you REALLY want to paint yourself the victim here, but considering you attacked me first, your attacks have been far more personal and STARTED with personal attacks, and you even violated TOS to attack me, you clearly aren't the victim in this paring.

if you want others to take your whole "I want to support others"-Attitude seriously and not consider you toxic and unhinged?

I'm not the one going on toxic and unhinged rants against people. Personally, I prefer talking about the topic and the facts, and have engaged with people doing so in-kind. I don't even like making this kind of post, but you just won't STOP. I'm also not the one going out of the forum to find things to attack people for. And my attitude is serious. If you aren't taking it seriously, that's on you. Honestly, I've seriously considered just ignoring your posts, but you keep poking at me because I guess you enjoy being an online abuser - as that is typical online abuser/bully behavior - and I haven't quite brought myself to the point of just sighing and ignoring you yet.

Having played multiple MMOs my whole life, the only reason to like FF14s healers really is either enjoying the idea of dpsing while healing because FF14 made it mainstream before WoW and still has a higher DPS focus than WoW, the superficial animations without regard for gameplay or never having played any MMO before and having no point of comparison what proper healer gameplay looks like. I mean, again, look at WoW. Can you make up any explanation how FF14s healer design is not objectively shit compared to what its biggest competitor came up with in terms of their healer classes, healing styles and healing gameplay?

False Dichotomy - logical fallacy. There are other reasons people would like FFXIV's healers than just the ones you mentioned.

THAT SAID:

As I said in my other reply, I do like WoW's healer design. I'm not sure how well that would work in FFXIV because FFXIV has an oGCD and movement heavy game (a lot of WoW encounters - at least back when I played it - had long periods where casters/healers could stand still and turret; FFXIV encounters do not), and quite a few of its healers are designed around doing little to no DPS in raids. The raids are also balanced around having most every healer present, or at least several of them. 25 mans are balanced around having something like 4-7 healers, FFXIV's are balanced around having 2. If the average raid in FFXIV had 3-5 healers, it would probably also open up that design space quite a bit.

I do agree it would be neat for there to be more variance, which is why I've argued for more variance between the healer gameplay styles and functions.

.

Daily thread limit: Hence why I have to combine posts...

You actually just reinforced my point. 70% GCD uptime is a guaranteed grey for a DPS. But for healers not rolling GCD for a third of the fight is somehow average. The role has been destroyed and simplified to the point where it's given over to the weakest players to participate in savage. And this decision rightfully brought ire of those who enjoy having a skill ceiling and requirment to have something more than a pulse to play.

And yeah, catering to your ilk is what makes developers the most money... You know what also leads to most money? FIFA Ultimate Team.

Okay, yeah, I'm just...not going to.

Moving on to people that actually want to have a good faith discussion and not gaslight...

[Azuri]

Okay, I'll give this a bit:

1) Yes, I weave them. The problem is when I need a bunch at once because a lot of people are making mistakes. You may have a 99 parsing team of Statics, I do not. My content is PUGs and DF. Last night I had an E8 I (happily, because that's just the kind of person I am) dragged the party through. I had to hardcast several raises, even Cure 2s because all my oGCDs were on CD. My "abysmal" play is clearing content with players that are probably generally gray parsers.

2) You say my play is "abysmal", but I'm consistently parsing Green and Blue, which is "average". "average" is not "abysmal", it's average.

3) "average" is also not "bad at the game", it's "average at the game".

4) I'm "not managing even that" because I'm not even arguing that - I'm arguing no one is pressing "only" "one button". Even people that are at high levels of play aren't, but the game also cannot be balanced nor designed only around high levels of play.

5) If anything, my opinion should carry more weight - statistically, I'm an average player, and generally speaking, you want to design games around average players, not 1% of the player base. So, if anything, you should be listening to me more, not less, based on your critique. Even if you want to argue - WRONGLY - that I'm "bad" and "abysmal" instead of average, again, a large portion of this game's community are what YOU would call "bad" and "abysmal", meaning the game should be balanced around their perceptions and playstyles.

6) I was quite concise in my reply to you. But brevity isn't good when it leads to misunderstanding and confusion.

You actually just reinforced my point. 70% GCD uptime is a guaranteed grey for a DPS. But for healers not rolling GCD for a third of the fight is somehow average. The role has been destroyed and simplified to the point where it's given over to the weakest players to participate in savage. And this decision rightfully brought ire of those who enjoy having a skill ceiling and requirment to have something more than a pulse to play.

And yeah, catering to your ilk is what makes developers the most money... You know what also leads to most money? FIFA Ultimate Team.