How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[Renathras]

I'd then tie this together with a magic balance gauge similar to BLM, using DPS swings the gauge to DPS mode, increasing damage potency but reducing healing, while using healing swings it to Healer mode which does the opposite. Basically a light version that contrasts BLM.

They had this in ARR and HW (it was called Cleric Stance) and it was removed because it was something that on paper may look good but in practice meant a lot of wipes if the healer was in "DPS phase" when healing was needed. It works for a DPS because DPS Jobs don't have a second essential task. Their task is "Do damage". Tanks and healers each have a second essential task they must achieve for the party to succeed, which are mitigate damage (in theory, hold threat, but that's automatic at this point) for tanks and heal the party for healers. When BLM goes into Ice for several casts, it's not going to immediately cause the boss to enrage and wipe the party. If a healer is caught in damage stance (higher damage but lower healing) and the boss goes into a high damage phase OR some of your party members screw up and need emergency healing, people die and wipes happen.

They also used to have this with tanks (threat increase and damage reduction tank stances vs damage increase stances) which weren't AS detrimental (a tank in damage stance using CDs could get their defense high enough to still survive big hits), but were removed for a similar reason.

Because both of these things were in the game and removed because they were seen as bad (and incidentally generated a lot of toxicity), it's unlikely they'll be re-added. Balancing an essential task (survivability/healing) against another (damage) tends to not be good design in practice, even if it seems it could be on paper. Again, BLM in Ice stance (for 3-5 GCDs) isn't causing the party to wipe. Healer in damage stance during the wrong time can cause party wipes. I think that's the distinction there.

EDIT:

So we have a lean to more sage and scholar unfortunately. And although all healer design needs a change IMHO, they should consider mitigation is wanted MORE moving forward and balance the healers accordingly if they are going to be working within this shield vs pure healer concept.

Wait, what?

Meta has been AST/SCH since EW launch outside of a week or so here or there. And has been meta for all of ShB and SB before it.

I agree that the split didn't work out - so much so I think WHM needs a 60 sec CD ability (tack Proshell onto Confession stacks, easy fix there) and AST should get Noct back because...seriously, why not? It was more distinct as a barrier healer than SGE is to SCH anyway - but the meta is clearly in favor of AST.

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Melee are lucky regarding balance because SE has a strange idea that positionals and melee uptime are the height of skill and worth an additional 10% dps, but tanks and dps in general are poorly designed in my opinion and sliding downhill rapidly towards the bottom of the pit to join healers. Tanks have always been watered down melee dps with a few cooldowns and dps boil down to variations of 1-2-3 and oGCD's to fill the gaps for the sake of something to press. The latest dps additions of "aoe version of your single target oGCD" and "button that you can press when you use a 2m cooldown" are uninspired and lazy and things like Lego SMN and Kaiten removal are a bad sign.

I don't entirely agree with your point as a whole, but how far can we carry this?

A Rogue in WoW works by building and spending Combo points, but in practice on boss fights, this translates to playing much like something like RPR where you build a resource and spend the resource. BLM (and WoW Arcane Mage) play with a similar ping-pong mechanic between burst and regen periods of their rotations. SMN (reminds me of Wrath and Cata era Ret Paladins in WoW) operates on a "It's off CD? Well then hit it!" mentality, which WAR operates SOMEWHAT similar to (if one isn't trying to hyper optimize, anyway). How is PLD's 1-2-3 1-2-4-5-5-5 1-2-3 1-2-4-5-5 1-2-3 6-6-6-6 7-7-7-7 just another variation of 1-2-3 and some oGCDs?

There's a point where you can zoom out to orbit, and then keep zooming out to where you can see the whole solar system, at which point every spot on the surface of the Earth will look the same as a kind of bluish haze...but that doesn't mean they're at all the same. Everything looks the same if you zoom out far enough, and every MMO combat system could be described as "variations of 1-2-3 with some CD abilities thrown in" if we go to that level of zoom, I think.

T-Owl says that WoW made the tanks distinct, but their mitigations are like FFXIV - different flavors of the same thing. "Choose between" Shield of the Righteous and the Holy heal on Protection Paladin isn't so different from a WAR choosing between Bloodwhetting or Nascent. The main difference is that FFXIV active mitigations tend to employ both together. And the distinction between WoW Prot Paly and tanky DK is kind of matched in FFXIV's between PLD and DRK - Blackest Night and Shelltron make a similar contrast. So does Heart of Corundum and Bloodwhetting. The idea that WoW's class design is so distinct but FFXIV's is samey doesn't really hold up when you look at them closely at all. Or even not at all - I play WAR and GNB and have PLD at 90; they all play distinct. RDM and SMN and BLM play nothing alike one another. MCH, NIN, and MNK (my other 90s) also don't play anything alike each other.

[Heroman3003]

I see everyone asking for more buttons for healers MORE BUTTONS, then I open the game, look at my 3 full hotbars of spells, 90% of which are only useful in content I never want to do (savages and ultimates) and go "where are those MORE BUTTONS even supposed to go here? There's no room". While more engaging DPS could be fun, just slapping more buttons on currently overbloated healer classes just seems like such a non-solution that serves to bloat healers' hotbars further to no real effect beyond giving illusion of skill or engagement when the only difference is instead of pressing 1 button over and over, you now press 3 buttons in specific order over and over; while needing to bend your hand backwards to reach your other buttons at times.

[T-Owl]

They had this in ARR and HW (it was called Cleric Stance) and it was removed because it was something that on paper may look good but in practice meant a lot of wipes if the healer was in "DPS phase" when healing was needed. It works for a DPS because DPS Jobs don't have a second essential task. Their task is "Do damage". Tanks and healers each have a second essential task they must achieve for the party to succeed, which are mitigate damage (in theory, hold threat, but that's automatic at this point) for tanks and heal the party for healers. When BLM goes into Ice for several casts, it's not going to immediately cause the boss to enrage and wipe the party. If a healer is caught in damage stance (higher damage but lower healing) and the boss goes into a high damage phase OR some of your party members screw up and need emergency healing, people die and wipes happen.

They also used to have this with tanks (threat increase and damage reduction tank stances vs damage increase stances) which weren't AS detrimental (a tank in damage stance using CDs could get their defense high enough to still survive big hits), but were removed for a similar reason.

Because both of these things were in the game and removed because they were seen as bad (and incidentally generated a lot of toxicity), it's unlikely they'll be re-added. Balancing an essential task (survivability/healing) against another (damage) tends to not be good design in practice, even if it seems it could be on paper. Again, BLM in Ice stance (for 3-5 GCDs) isn't causing the party to wipe. Healer in damage stance during the wrong time can cause party wipes. I think that's the distinction there.

I mean, lets be honest, the history of optimization in this game has been so far tanks and healers doing anything in their power to circumvent their additional role as much as possible in favor of doing dps. DPS stance tanking was a common think back when it was a thing and we see how insanely high dps uptime is for healers, so at this point dps and healers are just roles that exchange complexities and button bloat in their dps rotation for additional responsibilities with a small uptime of having to engage with them, only that healers toolkits are not reflective of how much time they spend performing a dps role compared to their side-function. FF14 just has no dedicated healers on a level of wow, where a high percentage of your casts in traditional healer classes are focussed on healing the party, with distinct toolkits making performing this primary role distinct.

[Renathras]

I mean, lets be honest, the history of optimization in this game has been so far tanks and healers doing anything in their power to circumvent their additional role as much as possible in favor of doing dps. DPS stance tanking was a common think back when it was a thing and we see how insanely high dps uptime is for healers, so at this point dps and healers are just roles that exchange complexities and button bloat in their dps rotation for additional responsibilities with a small uptime of having to engage with them, only that healers toolkits are not reflective of how much time they spend performing a dps role compared to their side-function. FF14 just has no dedicated healers on a level of wow, where a high percentage of your casts in traditional healer classes are focussed on healing the party, with distinct toolkits making performing this primary role distinct.

Which is why they don't work. They present an illusion of choice.

Also, healers in DPS stance wasn't the common thing. It kind of was for SCH, but was much less used by AST and especially WHM. Back in ARR, WHMs were dedicated healers of that type. In ShB, it's kind of drifting back that way due to Lilies and how they work as GCD heals, but it's kind of a half-position. HW healer balance was just...stupidly bad. SB was horribad for WHM.

[Icecylee]

Getting rid of several of the pointless healing button bloat is usually included with the idea of adding more DPS buttons, fwiw.

[Sebazy]

IMHO the core thing that needs to be addressed is breaking the 'need' to be smashing the dps button mindlessly.

Right now, there's just no reason not to be smashing Glare/holy as fast as the GCD will allow for 99% of the time you spend in combat. Until that fundamental detail changes, things aren't going to improve much IMO.

As for how to do that, that's the difficult part as I honestly don't think there's an route that's going to suit everyone.

[T-Owl]

Which is why they don't work. They present an illusion of choice.

Also, healers in DPS stance wasn't the common thing. It kind of was for SCH, but was much less used by AST and especially WHM. Back in ARR, WHMs were dedicated healers of that type. In ShB, it's kind of drifting back that way due to Lilies and how they work as GCD heals, but it's kind of a half-position. HW healer balance was just...stupidly bad. SB was horribad for WHM.

According to Mr Happy, who I consider as a more trustworthy source than you sorry not sorry, it kinda started off being more of a common thing in dungeon runs during ARR and absolutely became a common thin during HW and when I started during HW, it was the first thing I learned about FF14 Healers, that they DPS. Again, you are pulling a WoW Classic fallacy, attributing player incompetence in a new game to game design. I tell you, if we would get ARR classic now, you would see White Mages dpsing at the very least over half the time in Raids now and people pulling kills that would have been considered impossible back in the day.

IMHO the core thing that needs to be addressed is breaking the 'need' to be smashing the dps button mindlessly.

Right now, there's just no reason not to be smashing Glare/holy as fast as the GCD will allow for 99% of the time you spend in combat. Until that fundamental detail changes, things aren't going to improve much IMO.

As for how to do that, that's the difficult part as I honestly don't think there's an route that's going to suit everyone.

the issue is, that increasing heal requirements to a point where you have a high gcd healing uptime, you would see most of the people who fight against healers havin dps rotations and priding themselves for being pure healers right now probably being locked out of the role permanently due to being incapable of fullfilling these requirements. Thats why people advocate for some more dps buttons instead, because it wouldn't affect pure healers much but would do a great deal of increasing the engagement for anyone else.

[Derio]

The problem is if you increase the healing requirement in new fights it doesnt solve the problem of the back log of content that doesnt have the increased healing requirement which causes an issue.

Also increasing the healing requirement increases the difficulty of the job which may discourage even more people to not play healer.

You do not have to give healers full blown rotations like tanks. However giving them 3-4 more damage buttons per job would do wonders for engagement

[Renathras]

As for how to do that, that's the difficult part as I honestly don't think there's an route that's going to suit everyone.

Agreed. That's why I think the "Four Healers" idea has merit. This way, while a lot of people will be at least somewhat upset (having to swap Jobs if their Job now doesn't work like they like), the most people possible can be happy since they will still have a healer, at least one, that appeals to them.

[Sebazy]

the issue is, that increasing heal requirements to a point where you have a high gcd healing uptime, you would see most of the people who fight against healers havin dps rotations and priding themselves for being pure healers right now probably being locked out of the role permanently due to being incapable of fullfilling these requirements. Thats why people advocate for some more dps buttons instead, because it wouldn't affect pure healers much but would do a great deal of increasing the engagement for anyone else.

I do think heal requirements need to be given more thought for sure, looking at the incoming damage in 'Extremes' such as Zodiark is eye opening really, but it's just one piece in the puzzle really.

To really stress the point, even as a White Mage, the healer with the weakest oGCD kit, we've hit a point where outside of extreme situations where other people are at fault, pressing glare is almost never the wrong answer. There's just so little thought required for the bulk of the game outside of certain Savage and Extreme turns.

Feather style charges that we can rapidly overcap on, thundercloud procs that have a short window to be activated and used, even stricter resource management across the board, buffs that are dependant on positionals. There's lots of different ways outside of simple rotations to add depth and engagement to those 150+ button presses per duty. This is where SE really need to put some effort in IMO.