How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

[ty_taurus]

Snip

Did you really take a single clause from a 2013 opinion piece meant to talk about SCH and use that to go into a diatribe about WHM?

Let's get a few things straight here. You keep trying to white knight the WHM, but let's remind the classroom that you don't speak for all WHM players either. In fact there's another player that drops by the forums on occasion who will quite literally go to war with you to fight for the right for WHM to have actual complexity and how it's infuriating that WHM is always forced to hold the baby raddle.

Secondly, MTQ Capture both then and now uses prog footage for her guides. Do you know how frequently her videos feature people blatantly failing mechanics, dying, or are already KOed? In ARR, damage meant using Cleric Stance, and also WHM had far more restrictive MP problems, so conserving MP and waiting to see what mechanics were coming up were common when learning a new fight as a healer--particularly as a WHM, because the consequences of being in Cleric Stance at the wrong time or running out of MP were significantly more severe. But also, ARR was an experimental time. Every job was trying to figure out how to play correctly, and WHM players were, across that 2 year period of time, learning how to manage their DPS more effectively, and that was one of its talking points going into HW. While SCHs were thinking about ways to make it easier to heal when you have 2 SCHs together, WHMs were looking for better MP management and an easier time utilizing their DPS tools. And what did HW give WHM? All OGCD healing, Assize which restored some MP, Stone 3, and Aero 3--more damage, more ways to heal while doing damage, better MP management, and a new DoT.

I will say it until I'm blue in the face. No job in FFXIV should ever have its gameplay reduced to largely 1 button spam. It is a disgrace to the entire combat system of FFXIV. It is bad game design. That is fact based on the systems of FFXIV, not an opinion. If you're happy with 1 button spam, go play a Mario Party minigame.

[Renathras]

Did you really take a single clause from a 2013 opinion piece meant to talk about SCH and use that to go into a diatribe about WHM?

Did I take a CLAIM about the state of the game in ARR, actually look AT THE GAME IN ARR, and demonstrate how the CLAIM about the state of the game was wrong?

Yes.

Yes I did.

That seems to be not what you said though. What did you say? "diatribe about WHM"?

No, I didn't do that, because I didn't go on a diatribe. I did an analysis of the state of the game using recorded data from that era of the game to disprove the argument that you seem to prefer.

Sorry that upset you.

Let's get a few things straight here.

Oh yes...LET'S...

This is going to be "let me correct you for being wrong, isn't it?". Like, seriously, you guys keep attacking me personally, while doing your absolute BEST to ignore the arguments I'm making. That's known as an ad hominem logical fallacy. It's also a dick move. If you don't like my arguments, attack my ARGUMENTS. If you can't do that, realize you MAY be incorrect. It's okay to be incorrect.

Indeed, I even pointed out that you guys are MODERATELY CORRECT if we specify SCHOLAR ONLY. Something you guys are loathe to do because IT PROVES MY POINT THIS WHOLE TIME.

let's remind the classroom that you don't speak for all WHM players either

Sure, if we also remind the classroom that literally no one here speaks for all WHM players OR all healers more generally, either.

Good thing I'm not speaking - nor claiming I speak for - all WHM players.

I swear, if you spent half the effort addressing my actual points as you spend addressing canards, things I didn't say and didn't claim, and positions I don't hold - that is, strawmanning and gaslighting - we MIGHT actually be able to reach agreements on things!

In fact there's another player that drops by the forums on occasion

Ah, yes, one person.

I'm sure there are more.

There are also more that hold my position or even moreso - do you even know what my position is at this point? To give you a summary since you don't, it's this:

Healers are not perfect right now, but they also aren't terribly broken or horrible, and I think the best solution is to change up healers since we have four of them to where they are distinct in their DPS kits and less homogenized in their healing kits, and to where there are four levels of complexity of their kits in the same way Tanks have an easy (WAR), moderate (depends on who you ask, but DRK and GNB), and complex (PLD) options, and then we can let the players choose which they like.

WHAT ABOUT THAT STATEMENT do you find so offensive?

There are some that go farther than this and would insist that healing is pristine and nothing should ever be changed. My position is actually the moderate position here.

who will quite literally go to war with you to fight for the right for WHM to have actual complexity and how it's infuriating that WHM is always forced to hold the baby raddle.

WHM has "actual complexity" now. It's not not DPS complexity. There's no "baby raddle" here.

Secondly, MTQ Capture both then and now uses prog footage for her guides.

Yup.

But look at her prog video captures now. You WILL see WHM's casting Glare, not casting Cure 1 (ever), using GCDs, and having high Dia uptime. Well, the ones where they run WHM (her team seems to be AST + SCH/SGE depending on fight)

Also note I posted Mr Happy's video from Coils, and also note the same pattern and same gameplay. That WAS the raid scene WHEN THE CONTENT WAS LIVE.

Indeed, AS YOU GUYS HAVE POINTED OUT, AND DO ALL THE TIME, healer uptime is now much higher, NEEDED much higher to beat Enrages, and each fight has over 100 Glare/Broil/etc casts. That was CLEARLY not happening in the ARR fights, and they were clearing the fights.

I know you don't want to admit it - because it kills your false appeal to authority fallacy - but WHM did not function the way you say it did in ARR in the raid environment.

AND I EVEN GAVE YOU THE OUT by noting that SCHOLAR, in fact, DID function that way.

There's a perfect face-saving thing for you to do at this point:

"Oh, Renathras, you're right. We're thinking SCH, and as you point out, we're right about how SCH played in ARR. You're also right that WHM did not, and that healing in FFXIV accommodated both styles side by side back then and probably could today."

That's the correct, rational response to what I presented above.

The only thing it would require is you to let go of the notion you must be 100% right, anyone not agreeing with you must be 100% wrong, and unless you get 100% of what you want, the game is in a terrible and unsustainable place and that WHM is actually about what it should be.

Now, if we were arguing about SCHOLAR being kept as it is today, you'd have an argument...

...but we're NOT, since I've already said MY PREFERRED COURSE OF ACTION would be to revert SCH to its SB state, with the addition of Expedient and Faerie responsiveness that's been made better. Do you not AGREE with that position?

Do you know how frequently her videos feature people blatantly failing mechanics, dying, or are already KOed?

Yeah. As do Mr Happy's. As do current groups progging - and CLEARING - hard content. If anything, it just shows that the game was not tuned quite as tightly, was not as unforgiving, and was not as "all about damage" as it is today - which, btw, further proves my point.

In ARR, damage meant using Cleric Stance,

Which the SCHs were doing in ALL the videos I showed you but the WHMs were not. I also found this video of Turn 9 SAVAGE clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZ9LyDyfAE

Here, you will note the WHM casting more Stone 2 and Aero 2 spells and having better Aero and Aero 2 uptime. But a few things about that - this was in full ilevel 130 waiting for HW to come out by people that even self-described as being bored, but watch the WHM (and even the SCH) buffs carefully. Do you see what you DON'T see?

The WHM isn't Cleric Stance dancing. Like at all.

You also see, again, a lot of Cure 1 casts.

Even once these players had optimized and overgeared the fights, they STILL weren't playing like you insist they were. I'm not sure how better to prove to you you're wrong then by showing you actual evidence of you being wrong. If you still refuse to admit it at this point, you're being ruled by bias and desire, not reason. Moreover, I'm even pointing this out in a way that you CAN STILL BE CONSIDERED PARTIALLY RIGHT, you're just rejecting being partially right because...why? Because you can't accept a world where you're somewhat correct but not totally correct?

nd also WHM had far more restrictive MP problems, so conserving MP and waiting to see what mechanics were coming up were common when learning a new fight as a healer--

Again, watch the video immediately above this.

ilevel 130, overgering the content, waiting for HW to come out, group knew how to clear and did so while doing more of the things you insist were common. Basically a late expansion farm party and they STILL weren't Cleric Stance dancing and weren't as balls to the wall on damage spells. Indeed, if you look towards the later part of the fight, the WHM is almost exclusively casting heals and NOT maintaining DoT uptime.

You can blame this on MP economy if you want, but it still proves YOUR POSITION ON WHM IN ARR is WRONG.

HOWEVER, I will say it again, your position ON SCHOLAR is correct.

Take the partial W.

But also, ARR was an experimental time.

And YET, you guys keep trying to appeal to ARR when you THINK it proves/supports your position.

I'm pointing out to you it clearly does not.

It doesn't matter if it was an "experimental time", we're talking about how Healers actively played the game at that time.

This whole argument is kind of wonky, but it's basically you guys trying to insist to me that I've been playing the wrong game all this time because FFXIV has always been this way, when it's clear THAT IS FALSE, and the game I want is actually what FFXIV was, at least regarding WHM.

I'm even reaching out to you half-way on SCH and you're slapping my hand offered in friendship and compromise away because I won't join you in lying about what ARR was like.

And what did HW give WHM?

Not that this is relevant - we are talking about what the game was from its "foundation", ARR, but to answer your question - an oGCD used for MP management, an upgrade to its spam nuke, a field effect so SCH wouldn't feel TOO special, and a single oGCD heal that was NOT an emergency panic button exclusive like Benediction was. Other than the Stone upgrade (which is just standard for every expansion - it replaced Stone 2 in practice in your rotation), the rest was largely based on AST being added and them trying to adapt to a world where every 8 man group was no longer expected to include WHM + SCH.

Don't forget what came right after THAT: SB where WHM was given a Lily system that actively required them to cast Cure 1 and Cure 2 to activate. So be careful how heavily you hang your hat on "but the next expansion...", and that's if we ignore that ShB and EW came after and reflect the Devs' CURRENT intentions for Healers.

I will say it until I'm blue in the face. No job in FFXIV should ever have its gameplay reduced to largely 1 button spam.

And I will ask it over and over again - who is asking for a Job that has only 1 damage button and nothing else that it presses and presses nothing else?

LITERALLY NO ONE.

Even WHM's current state isn't that.

And what I'm asking for (other than its kit to remain LARGELY the same) is for the healing model to shift to where we use more GCD heals, which is the exact OPPOSITE of asking for "largely 1 button spam"!

If you're happy with 1 button spam, go play a Mario Party minigame.

THIS is the only "go play ultimate" going on in this thread, btw.

And it's worse than "go play ultimate".

At least "go play ultimate" says you have a place in this game and this community.

This "quit FFXIV" is far more toxic.

.

Again, in summary, if you read nothing else of the above, my position you are ACTUALLY ARGUING AGAINST is this:

Healers are not perfect right now, but they also aren't terribly broken or horrible, and I think the best solution is to change up healers since we have four of them to where they are distinct in their DPS kits and less homogenized in their healing kits, and to where there are four levels of complexity of their kits in the same way Tanks have an easy (WAR), moderate (depends on who you ask, but DRK and GNB), and complex (PLD) options, and then we can let the players choose which they like.

WHAT ABOUT THAT STATEMENT do you find so offensive?

As I've said numerous times (and as you lot have IGNORED numerous times) my ideal course of action would ultimately be for SCH to be returned to its SB kit - AT THE VERY LEAST CAN YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THAT? - SGE should have a DPS kit more akin to RDM's Caster kit, or the Water/Earth kit that was presented here a few posts ago and deal damage leveraging Kardia instead of Aetherflow 2.0, AST should...actually I honestly have no idea what AST should do other than the Cards need some kind of major overhaul and, imo, should be the key part of its gameplay and rotation, not a side game, and finally, that WHM should shift to a more GCD healing model flexing the Lily system to allow it to deal damage with a simple damage rotation (basically what it has today) but where it's actually getting more varied GCDs in by casting things other than endless Glare as its filler.

I honestly LOVE the Lily system because it ENCOURAGES GCD USE ON HEALING and allows the Job to still perform just fine in the damage department. Instead of 4x Glare, you have 3x Solace/Rapture + Misery, which I find VASTLY more enjoyable. The thing I'd really like to see is for more varied Lily abilities and for Lilies to be generated at a rate that they comprise more healing and you can use Misery more often. I'd love it if, for example, Regen (or hell, all WHM heal spells) generated a stack of Blood Lily so that every three casts you could use Misery. It would make spells like Regen and Medica 2 not DPS losses that way, and I'd love that. Refund that healing with damage and give me a reason to cast all those GCD heals instead of do 100% of healing with oGCDs and fill in the gap with Glare for 100% of GCDs that aren't Dia refreshes.

...in other words, yet again, I'm arguing for THE EXACT OPPOSITE of what you think I'm arguing for.

SB SCH + benefits,
SGE that actually plays like a WoW Disc Priest or RIFT Cloromancer,
AST that actually uses Cards meaningfully,
WHM that is more like an ARR WHM but modernized with the Lily system.

THAT is my actual position.

THAT is what YOU are arguing against.